HC Deb 28 June 1948 vol 452 cc1865-70
Mr. Younger

I beg to move, in page 22, line 28, to leave out "and," and to insert: authorise the Secretary of State to give directions prohibiting the provision for the children in any home of clothing of any description specified in the directions, and impose requirements. This Amendment and the next three Amendments on the Paper relate to the same matter. They are:

In page 22, line 30, at end, insert: (b) require the furnishing to the Secretary of State of information as to the facilities provided for the parents and guardians of children in the homes to visit and communicate with the children, and authorise the Secretary of State to give directions as to the provision of such facilities; In line 31, leave out "limit," and insert "give directions limiting."

In line 33, at end, insert: (c) provide for consultation with the Secretary of State as to applicants for appointment to the charge of a home and empower the Secretary of State to prohibit the appointment of any particular applicant therefor except in the cases (if any) in which the regulations dispense with such consultation by reason that the person to be appointed possesses such qualifications as may be prescribed by the regulations. These Amendments relate to the regulations for the conduct of voluntary homes. The Amendments would empower the Secretary of State by regulation to give directions where children are unsuitably clothed—that is the intention of the first Amendment—and, in the second Amendment, in line 30, to require information as to the facilities granted to parents or guardians who visit and communicate with their children and to give directions as to those facilities. The fourth Amendment, in line 33, would enable my right hon. Friend to make regulations to require consultation as to the persons to be appointed to the charge of a voluntary home. The third Amendment in line 31 is simply an Amendment consequential upon the other three.

Commander Galbraith

I am in agreement upon the first, second and third of these Amendments, but I have doubts of the advisability of making the Amendment to line 33. It seems that the Secretary of State proposes to take power to deal with the appointment of persons to the charge of a voluntary home. I agree that it is quite a proper power for him to have in respect of a local authority home. Indeed, he has already taken that power in Clause 15, (4, d). Now he proposes to extend it to the voluntary homes. It is proper for him to have this power in connection with local authority homes because 50 per cent. of the cost of running those homes is borne by the Treasury and the other 50 per cent. by the local authority. The right hon. Gentleman is providing nothing for the upkeep of voluntary homes. Further, it seems to me that the large voluntary homes have very great experience in connection with these appointments, and as to the type of person they require and who best performs the necessary duties. Therefore, they should be left with their own independence of choice.

If it should be that, following an initial inspection, it is found that something is lacking in or is wrong with the management of a particular home, no doubt representations could, be made to the right hon. Gentleman which he would forward to the home in question, as a result of which the person who was regarded as unsatisfactory might be removed. I do not see that there is any reason why the right hon. Gentleman should take these wider powers. I should like to have some explanation of what this Amendment in line 33 means. While it gives the right hon. Gentleman authority to prohibit the appointment of a particular applicant, it goes on to say: except in the cases (if any) in which the regulations dispense with such consultation by reason that the person to be appointed possesses such qualifications as may be prescribed by the regulations. This question of qualifications is not altogether a good rule to go by. There may be people who have not any qualifications at all, so far as the right hon. Gentleman may know, but who may be the most suitable persons to manage a particular home. With their wealth of experience I should think that the great voluntary organisations would be quite capable of deciding whether persons were qualified or otherwise to perform these functions. I am not satisfied with this Amendment and I hope that we may have some further explanation of it. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will think again before he presses the Amendment on the House.

4.45 p.m.

Mr. K. Lindsay

I am grateful to the Home Secretary for these Amendments. We shall secure by them that the children in voluntary homes will be under proper supervision, like children in local authority homes. All these Amendments, including the last, to which the hon. and gallant Member for Pollok (Commander Galbraith) objected, are important. Other hon. Members may speak about clothing. I want to refer to the rights of the parents, and to this very important Amendment relating to staffing and persons who are in charge of the homes.

There is a wealth of evidence in the Curtis Committee's Report to justify what the Home Secretary is doing. These Amendments do not imply general criticism of people who are in charge of voluntary homes. It means that the person in charge of a home is probably the most important person who can influence life in the home. It is too much to allow complete freedom in these appointments, especially in view of the new power of the local authorities and of the Secretary of State to assist voluntary homes financially. The Amendments are a very reasonable precaution, and I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Hollis

I join strongly with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Pollok (Commander Galbraith) in begging the Home Secretary to look again at the fourth of these Amendments. I agree with the point made by the hon. Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. K. Lindsay) that the mere putting down of these words does not of itself constitute a general criticism of the voluntary homes, and of everything that they do. We are not arguing that nothing should be done and that the Home Secretary should take no powers in the matter. We are simply asking him to look again at those particular words.

The great danger is that, at worst, there might be a difference of opinion between the Home Office and one of the great voluntary homes about somebody whom the home wished to appoint and the Home Secretary would not allow them to appoint. That would be a calamity and a very great danger, unless we have regulations a great deal fairer and less bureaucratic. I am by no means happy about the words in the last line of the Amendment: possesses such qualifications as may be prescribed by the regulations. I very much doubt whether anybody who has studied the history of an institution like Dr. Barnardo's Homes could fail to come to the conclusion that this kind of enterprise is perfectly capable of deciding upon the right kind of man, and of laying down objectively the most desirable qualifications needed in persons who carry out this work. The mentality which thinks that we can settle who is a desirable person by some test or objective qualifications is a dangerous one. While I join with the hon. Member for the Combined English Universities in welcoming the three other Amendments and agreeing that something ought to be done about the voluntary homes, I also join with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Pollok in begging the Home Secretary to look at the wording of this Amendment again.

Sir T. Moore

While I share to some extent the doubts and concern of my hon. Friends, one must remember that we are not dealing entirely with Dr. Barnardo's Homes or the other great voluntary societies for whom we all have such respect and admiration. There are small voluntary homes in whose cases it is absolutely essential that the Secretary of State shall, if he so desires, step in and lay down certain regulations by which they shall be immediately controlled. I agree that it is most desirable that the great societies should have not only the right to control their own affairs but the knowledge that they have that right, but in view of the numerous cases brought to our notice during the last couple of years where children have suffered very grieviously, both physically and mentally, through the deliberate cruelty—perhaps "neglect" would be a more appropriate word—of those in charge of the homes, I must, on balance, support the Home Secretary's Amendment.

Mr. Ede

The hon. and gallant Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir T. Moore) has stated very clearly the reason we ask for the Amendments in this form. I am certain that there will be no conflict between the Home Office and the big organisations with regard to these appointments. The relationships between us are so cordial that I am quite sure that consultation in those cases will be mutually advantageous. However, there are single homes, sometimes conducted with the best possible motives but under a management committee which is quite unskilled and unused to the making of this type of appointment. We must have regard to the interests of the children in those homes. It is, therefore, desirable for us to have this power. It was pressed upon us very strongly in Committee. We did not rush into undertaking this liability. We resisted it until it was quite clear that we really had no answer in the bad cases. We proposed to have this power so that in those cases where an unsuitable person is going to be appointed, we shall be able to take steps to prevent the appointment in the interests of the children.

It is to be hoped that with the training schemes which we have, and I am glad to say the co-operation we are receiving from universities and other training bodies, we shall be able in the course of a few years to establish a series of qualifications to which we shall be able to attach such importance that an appointment may be made outside the regulations. I hope that before we reach that stage we shall be able also to make some practical test the basis of the qualifications being recognised.

I appeal to the House, in the interests of the children in the small home, with its single body of management, to give us the powers we ask. I can assure the House that there is no question of our getting into conflict with the big organisations; I have no doubt on occasions we may be able to suggest to some of the small homes that they would be well advised to make a selection for their appointments from their staffs. This Amendment will enable us to safeguard the interests of some children who in the past have sometimes suffered neglect for a number of years because the appointment was not so bad as to become a scandal, although it was not so good as to be justified in the interests of the inmates of the home.

Commander Galbraith

Will the Home Secretary tell us whether the reason for putting in the words: except in the cases (it any) in which the regulations dispense with such consultation is that he has in mind that he might dispense with it in the case of some of the largest, best known and oldest of these organisations?

Mr. Ede

I think that at this stage I ought not to do that, but I can assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that I do not anticipate any difficulty with the big homes, with the comparatively large numbers in their service from whom they can make selections.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In page 22, line 30, at end, insert: (b) require the furnishing to the Secretary of State of information as to the facilities provided for the parents and guardians of children in the homes to visit and communicate with the children, and authorise the Secretary of State to give directions as to the provision of such facilities.

In line 31, leave out "limit," and insert "give directions limiting."

In line 33, at end, insert: (c) provide for consultation with the Secretary of State as to applicants for appointment to the charge of a home and empower the Secretary of State to prohibit the appointment of any particular applicant therefor except in the cases (if any) in which the regulations dispense with such consultation by reason that the person to be appointed possesses such qualifications as may be prescribed by the regulations."—[Mr. Younger.]

Consequential Amendments made.