HC Deb 28 June 1948 vol 452 cc1860-3
Mr. Younger

I beg to move, in page 13, line 22, after the first "child," to insert: and that suitable arrangements have been or will be made for the child's reception and welfare in the country to which he is going. This Amendment empowers a local authority, with the consent of the Secretary of State, to procure, or assist in procuring, the emigration of children in their care, and the Secretary of State has to be satisfied, among other things, that the emigration would benefit the children. An Amendment was moved in Committee to provide that the Secretary of State should also be satisfied that the conditions of the reception of the children and arrangements for their welfare were suitable. My right hon. Friend has thought this matter over, and while he is still doubtful whether the words of the Amendment are strictly necessary, he feels that they would give the assurance which Members desired in Committee and would have no disadvantageous consequences.

Mr. Hopkin Morris

I welcome this Amendment because this is an important matter. How will the Minister satisfy himself that the conditions are suitable? During the last 30 years associations engaged in child emigration have had a wealth of experience, which they have put at the disposal of the Home Office. I have in mind the case of a voluntary association taking children for the purpose of settling them on the land. Out of 1,080 children taken during that 30 years period only one was placed as a settler. The explanations of that may be varied. Out of the children that were taken for emigration purposes a high percentage were mentally defective, while of the others who were sent a large number were used in the country to which they emigrated as cheap labour, because there was no particular opening for them in their own class in those countries.

4.30 p.m.

The important matters in mass emigration are, first of all, the right selection of suitable children and not sending mentally defective children; and, secondly, to see that the children when sent abroad, are given suitable opportunities. I am glad to see that this Amendment has been moved, but what is far more important than putting an Amendment into the Bill is to know something about the machinery by which the Bill works. The time has come to inquire into the emigration system on the lines of the Curtis Committee inquiry in this country, namely, by setting up an authoritative committee to inquire into the conditions and the facts as well as the experiences during the past 30 years, so that through that report the right hon. Gentleman can implement this Clause.

Mr. K. Lindsay

I should like to thank my right hon. Friend for accepting this Amendment. The words are of great importance. The whole essence of emigation is the after-care that is given. These words mean something. As to the suggestion made by the hon. and learned Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Hopkin Morris), that is something which took place some years ago, because at this moment there is very little emigration of this sort going on at all. I am very glad that the Dominions are not now acquiring what were Poor Law children, and I hope that that kind of thing will die a natural death. This is a reasonable precaution.

Mr. Ede

I thank the hon. Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. K. Lindsay) for what he has said. It is our intention to ensure that there shall be effective after-care for these children when they have landed. One of the causes that will operate against the reappearance of the type of things to which the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Hopkin Morris) has alluded, is the fact that the receiving countries are a great deal more discriminating now than they were at the time when the kind of thing he mentions was being carried on. That does not absolve us from first of all ensuring that we send suitable children and children who have some wish to go; also that in the Dominion or other place to which they are sent there are adequate after-care arrangements, so that where necessary they will be given help and guidance; and, if it should appear that they are being imposed upon by someone on the other side of the ocean, that they will have a friend who will be able to see that they receive proper treatment.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Younger

I beg to move, in page 13, line 24, to leave out from "consents," to the end of line 25, and to insert: Provided that where a child is too young to form or express a proper opinion on the matter, the Secretary of State may consent to his emigration notwithstanding that the child is unable to consent thereto in any case where the child is to emigrate in company with a parent, guardian or relative of his, or is to emigrate for the purpose of joining a parent, guardian, relative or friend. This Amendment is moved to meet certain fears that were expressed about the power of the Secretary of State to consent to the emigration of a child if the child is considered too young to give a valid consent that means something. The purpose of the Amendment is to cut down somewhat the power of the Secretary of State in that regard, and he will be able to give his consent only if the child is accompanied by a parent, guardian or relative or if the child is going to join a parent, guardian, relative or friends after emigration. In other circumstances the Secretary of State will not be able to give consent to any emigration of a child too young to give his own consent. These two qualifications in the Amendment will practically cover the cases where it might be desirable to let a child go abroad, even if it were too small to make up its own mind in the matter.

Commander Gailbraith

We understood on the Committee stage that the cases referred to in the Amendment were really the only ones that were at issue, and that it was for that purpose that the words in the original Clause were inserted. I am very glad indeed that this Amendment has been brought forward. It is right and proper that this safeguard should be provided, and I am very agreeable to the Amendment being made.

Mrs. Jean Mann (Coatbridge)

I should like to thank my hon. Friend for this Amendment which will satisfy those of us on this side who objected to the Clause in its original form. This Amendment removes any ambiguity and protects the child.

Mr. Hollis

I do not ask the question in any hostility, but in curiosity, when I request the hon. Gentleman to give us a definition of "too young."

Mr. Younger

I do not think it is a matter which could be defined. It is a principle which varies when it is applied to different things. One would have to judge from the circumstances of the particular case and then come to a conclusion whether or not the child knew what it was to which he was giving his consent.

Mr. Hollis

There is no legal explanation?

Mr. Ede

One would have to take into account all the circumstances of the particular child. We are anxious not to put words into the Bill that would compel us to break up a family. The case we have in mind is where there are a number of children in a family and one of them is so young that it could not be expected to express an opinion, but it would be very wrong to send the other children of the family abroad and leave this one behind. It was, therefore, the aim of trying to include the youngest child of a family rather than to exclude children which animated us in drawing up this definition. The hon. Member will agree that if they are looked at from that point of view, the words in the Amendment are appropriate to the purpose.

Amendment agreed to.