§ 11. Major Guy Lloydasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government are prepared to cease the delivery of war potential 1979 material to Soviet Russia until the Soviet blockade of Berlin has been lifted and explicit assurances have been received that the Russian-sponsored hostile propaganda and subversive activities in this country shall cease forthwith.
§ Mr. GallacherOn a point of Order, I have been advised, and I think well advised, at the Table, on several occasions, that assertion, particularly unproved and un-provable assertion, should not go into a Question. Yet we have here the assertion that there is:
Russian-sponsored hostile propaganda and subversive activities in this country.I ask you, Sir—[Interruption.] I would challenge anyone to accuse me of any of these subversive activities, but I ask, if there was such activity in the country, is not that a matter for the courts and not a subject for a Question to the Foreign Secretary? Is it not a subject for the courts, if true? I entirely and emphatically deny that there is any truth in the assertion.
Mr. SpeakerAn hon. Member who makes a statement like this, provided it is in Order and I gather it is in Order, is himself responsible for the statement, and no one else.
§ Mr. GallacherEveryone in this House knows that the assertion is directed towards the Communist Party in this country. The reaction of hon. Members opposite made that clear, and everyone knows that to be the intention. There is no word of truth in it, but I ask if there were truth in it, is it not a matter for the courts, and not a subject for a Question to the Foreign Secretary?
§ Mr. EdenWhile you are considering that point of Order, Mr. Speaker, may I draw attention to the Amendment on today's Order Paper in the name of the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) and the hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Piratin) drawing attention to:
The active war policy pursued by the Government, as shown by the North Atlantic War Pact.I suggest, without any false differentiation of agreement, that that is a pretty good example.
Mr. SpeakerI think we had better pass on to the Question. All I say is that perhaps it is a good example of the pot calling the kettle black.
§ Mr. PiratinI would like to have your Ruling, Mr. Speaker. It is a fact, as the Clerk at the Table is well aware, that Questions have often been refused by the Table, and I have been asked whether I have evidence in support of a statement in a Question. Therefore, when a similar Question is put down by the hon. and gallant Member for East Renfrew (Major Lloyd), may I ask whether he has any evidence of what he is saying, and, if so, is he not a traitor not to reveal it?
§ Brigadier HeadWould it be correct, and in Order, to say that the two hon. Members opposite can dish it out, but cannot take it?
§ Mr. GallacherI think I have taken plenty in this House. May I draw attention to the fact that in our Amendment we make a reference to war policy and offer as evidence of the accusation a certain organisation known as the Atlantic Pact. We offer evidence, but no evidence of any kind is offered in the assertion made in this Question, and I ask you again, Mr. Speaker, whether, if there are subversive activities, that is not a matter for the courts?
§ Mr. MayhewMay I say in answer to the Question that I do not know what particular classes of material the hon. and gallant Member has in mind, but I must make it clear that, in their economic and commercial relations with Eastern European countries, His Majesty's Government are guided entirely by the balance of advantage to British interests. My right hon. Friend does not think that it would be in the interests of the country, or in any way assist the solution of the Berlin question, to abandon that policy, or to make it contingent upon the fulfilment of other conditions.
§ Major LloydThe Under-Secretary must be fully aware of the number of exports which are being sent to Russia which are definitely war potential. Have the Government got no guts that they submissively allow this war potential to go to Soviet Russia and allow them to do and say the things about us, which they do? Does not he realise that the whole country is indignant at the continuation of this scandal?
§ Mr. MayhewOf course, it is not a question of resolution, or guts, it is a question of common sense and of balancing out what is the British interest involved.
§ Mr. Platts-MillsDoes the Under-Secretary, like hon. Gentlemen opposite, think that the British people have no guts, and so do not need the wheat which the Soviet Union is sending us?
§ Mr. BlackburnWhile in no way accepting the attacks made by the party opposite, may I ask on what principle of morality or expediency can the Under-Secretary reconcile an economic blockade of Spain, which is a non-aggressive totalitarian Power, with the supplying of war potential to an aggressive totalitarian Power?
§ Mr. MayhewI do not accept the suggestion that there is an economic blockade of Spain. I am stating that in regard to all countries and in all circumstances, we judge each of these cases on its merits from the point of view of the balance of advantage.
Vice-Admiral TaylorWould it not be more to the advantage of this country to cut off these supplies to Russia, owing to the failure of the Government so far to bring Russia to her senses?
§ Mr. MayhewI am quite sure that any policy recommended by the hon. and gallant Member would be no contribution whatever to the cause of peace.
§ Mr. ScollanIs it not the case that at the present time Russia is supplying tungsten and chrome ore to the United States of America for stockpiling purposes?
§ Mr. MayhewThat is not a question for His Majesty's Government to answer.
§ Commander NobleIs it not about time that we began to take some initiative in the cold war, especially as the Chancellor of the Exchequer has told us that the Soviet Union hopes to create a chronic state of economic weakness in Western Europe?
§ Mr. MayhewI think it is more important to meet the cold war with cool heads.
§ Brigadier RaynerCan the Under-Secretary say whether we have discussed with our American Allies the question of 1982 refusing war potential stores to this hostile country?
§ Mr. MayhewWe are constantly in touch with the United States on the implementation of the Economic Co-operation Act.
§ Mr. EdenThe Under-Secretary will have seen in the Press today the note which has just been delivered by the Allied Powers about the intensification of Soviet action in Berlin. Does it not seem a little incongruous that we should deliver notes couched in this very strong language—almost unprecedented in my experience—and at the same time, be exporting valuable war material?
§ Mr. MayhewQuite clearly, our political relations with other countries have an influence upon our economic relations with them. I am merely stating that His Majesty's Government intend to deal with all cases on their merits, judging the balance of British interests.
§ Major LloydIn view at the thoroughly unsatisfactory and almost contemptible reply of the Minister, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.