HC Deb 22 April 1948 vol 449 cc2009-17
Mr. Eden

May I ask the Leader of the House if he will tell us the Business for next week?

The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison)

Yes, Sir. The Business for next week will be as follows:

Monday, 26th April.—My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will move a Motion for an Address of Congratulation to their Majesties on the occasion of their Silver Wedding. Afterwards we shall resume the Committee stage of the Representation of the People Bill.

Tuesday, 27th April.—Completion of the Committee stage of the Representation of the People Bill.

Wednesday, 28th April.—Consideration of the proposed Amendments to the Standing Orders relating to Scottish Business; Report and Third Reading of the Agriculture (Scotland) Bill; Second Reading of the Lord High Commissioner (Church of Scotland) Bill, and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution. I hope that that will be thoroughly uncontroversial.

Thursday, 29th April.—Second Reading of the White Fish and Herring Industries Bill; Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution; Report and Third Reading of the Animals Bill.

Friday, 30th April.—Report and Third Reading of the Cotton Spinning (Re-equipment Subsidy) Bill, and of the Education (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill; Second Reading of the Merchant Shipping Bill [Lords] and Committee stage of the necessary Ways and Means Resolution.

Mr. Eden

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman a question about Tuesday's Business? While I have no desire unduly to prolong those proceedings might I ask the right hon. Gentleman if it is clear that no undertaking has been given from this side of the House that we can complete that business by Tuesday night?

Mr. H. Morrison

I know what the right hon. Gentleman has said, but yesterday was the fifth day in Committee on the Bill and Tuesday will be the seventh. I should have thought we ought to finish the Committee stage on Tuesday. I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. We shall take all the steps we can to get the Bill. We have had a long time on this Bill in Committee.

Mr. Eden

Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to make it clear that there is no understanding on the matter with this side of the House.

Mr. Morrison

That is quite true, Sir.

Colonel Gomme-Duncan

In relation to the Bill dealing with the emoluments of the Lord High Commissioner for the Church of Scotland, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he knows how pleased Scotland will be that the right hon. Gentleman has not only not forgotten this matter, but that he has been briefed on it as well.

Mr. Eden

May I revert for a moment to a matter which I first raised on Tuesday, namely the request of the hon. Member for King's Norton (Mr. Blackburn) for a Select Committee?

[That a Select Committee be appointed to investigate into and report on the circumstances in which a number of names of Members of this House were allegedly appended without their approval to a telegram sent on 16th April to Signor Nenni wishing him "outstanding success" in the forthcoming Italian elections.]

The right hon. Gentleman will remember that I made it plain that we reserved our position on this side of the House in the matter. We have further considered the matter. While it is not our view that the actual despatch of the telegram is a matter with which we want to concern ourselves, we do ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is not clear that the allegation that the names of hon. Members were added to the telegram without their consent, raises an issue which is the concern of the House as a whole? I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether—as I am sure he has —he has seen a statement made by the hon. Member for Luton (Mr. Warbey) this morning? Again, I am not stressing the despatch of the telegram. The hon. Member is alleged to have said: If these allegations were proved true and the matter was not one of genuine misunderstanding, I should have to dissociate myself in the clearest possible terms from what I should regard as disreputable political tactics. Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that this matter raises an issue which gravely concerns the reputation of this House, both at home and abroad?

Mr. H. Morrison

I did undertake the other day that I would consider the Motion of my hon. Friend the Member for King's Norton (Mr. Blackburn) when it was on the Paper. I did not commit myself. I have very carefully considered the matter. I said then, and I am bound to say that I am still of the same opinion, that I thought this was a family matter. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It is a domestic matter involving one of the Parliamentary political parties, and I think it best that they should look at the matter themselves. The House must not become too introspective about allegations which are made about hon. Members, or apprehensions that are entertained. Otherwise, we shall all be searching our souls too much. If any hon. Member opposite had been alleged to have signed the telegram to Signor Nenni that might make a difference, but I understand that no Conservative Member is involved in the matter up to now.

Mr. Eden

I am sure the right hon. Gentleman must understand that while one aspect of this matter can be regarded as domestic, the other aspect sets an extraordinary precedent if hon. Members wherever they sit, in any part of this House, can have their names used wrongfully by other hon. Members in the despatch of a telegram, wherever that telegram may go to. Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that some arrangement can be made to discuss a Motion on the matter, if he does not wish to agree to the appointment of a Select Committee?

Mr. Morrison

No, Sir, I do not think we can. I have been here quite a time, as has the right hon. Gentleman, and I have never known a time when hon. Members were not alleging things against other hon. Members. That is a commonplace of Parliamentary life. People outside are often alleging things about hon. Members. We really must not get into such a state that nobody can say anything about another hon. Member without our having to consider appointing a Select Committee. The matter concerned is being dealt with in another way and through normal channels. I really do not think that it is necessary for the Opposition to assist us in dealing with the matter.

Sir I. Fraser

If a person outside this House were to forge the names of hon. Members upon a document, would that not be a breach of Privilege? Is not this then a serious matter?

Mr. Morrison

I do not know, Sir, whether it would be a breach of Privilege or not, and it would not be for me to decide whether, prima facie, it would be so or not. That would be a matter for you, Mr. Speaker, to decide. It would be unwise for us as Members of Parliament to become too sensitive about ourselves. We cannot be in public life without being knocked about.

Mr. Churchill

Does not the right hon. Gentleman recognise that there are two perfectly separate branches of this issue? The first is one which, as he said, is a family matter. The second is one which concerns the House of Commons as a whole. It is a very serious thing that Members' names should have been used, with all the facilities of the telegraph and radio, against their will and without their authority. Surely that is not a matter of which the party opposite are the only guardians, although they are at the moment the chief sufferers.

Mr. Morrison

I follow the tendency of the last observation of the right hon. Gentleman. The action concerned was in the main, one of transmission to quarters outside the House of Commons. I cannot see why, in this matter which involves the domestic life and the problems of one of the political parties in the House, the Opposition are bursting to come into it to sit on a Select Committee and to probe around. The Opposition may be sure that the matter is being taken care of quite well. I promise them that if ever they have an internal domestic problem of their own, I will leave it to them.

Mr. Churchill

On what ground does the Lord President say that before we have any right on this side of the House as Members of the House to take an interest in the conduct of the House and in the general standards that prevail, we must first of all have someone upon this side who has been guilty, or is alleged to have been guilty, of some breach of good behaviour in this matter? Surely we are entitled to look at things from a House of Commons point of view. It is not the monopoly of any party or of any majority to say that they will exclude all Members except those of their own party from any inquiry into the very grave alleged offence of the forging of hon. Members' names to a document.

Mr. Warbey

As my name has been mentioned in this connection, may I say that I associate myself with the view expressed by the Leader of the House and regard this as a matter to be threshed out among the hon. Members concerned, and not as a matter for the House?

Earl Winterton

Is it not utterly inconsistent and grossly unfair to have expelled an hon. Member of this House for the offence of having communicated information outside and then for the Leader of the House to refuse to have an investigation into a far more serious charge by hon. Members of this House that their names have been fraudulently used on a telegram? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his answers today, far from enhancing the dignity of the House, will cause everyone outside to believe that the Socialist Government have something to conceal?

Mr. George Porter

On a point of Order, may I put a question to you, Mr. Speaker? In view of the fact that you have ruled that this is not a question for the Committee of Privileges, will you explain to what purpose a Resolution in regard to it could be discussed in this House?

Mr. Speaker

That is not a question on which I have any authority. I have ruled that there is not a prima facie case of breach of Privilege. Now there is a Motion on the Order Paper about appointing a Select Committee, and that I gather is the question which the right hon. Gentleman addressed to the Leader of the House. He is entitled to do that. I have no authority in this matter; it is a matter for the House.

Mr. G. Porter

Further to that point of Order. In view of the refusal to appoint a Select Committee, can a Motion with regard to it be put down? What type of Motion could be discussed, and to what purpose?

Mr. Speaker

I gather that a Motion is already on the Order Paper, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) has asked when that may be discussed. That is quite in Order. It is not a matter of Privilege or anything else. It is a matter which can be put to the Leader of the House.

Earl Winterton

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, would not the simplest way to bring it before the Committee of Privileges be for some hon. Member to get up on a platform and say, "I charge certain hon. Members opposite with having fraudulently used my name"? Would not that be the line to be taken by hon. Gentlemen opposite who object to the attitude of the Leader of the House?

Mr. Morrison

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, is it in Order for the right hon. and noble Member to get up in this House and incite people outside to make allegations—[Interruption]—I am perfectly serious—to commit a breach of Privilege of Parliament?

Mr. Churchill

On that point of Order, is not my noble Friend fully entitled to state a hypothetical case without the right hon. Gentleman trying to escape from his embarrassment by charges of incitement?

Mr. Speaker

It is difficult for me to answer. Of course, the word "fraud" has come in. In the Motion which is on the Order Paper I do not think the word "fraud" appears. That, of course, is going a little beyond what is in the Motion on the Order Paper. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington asked if there is going to be time to discuss this. I gather that the Leader of the House has said "No." I do not know whether it is really possible to pursue the matter much further with advantage.

Mr. Gallacher

Further to that point of Order, Mr. Speaker, is there not something very fraudulent about the indignation which is being expressed by the Opposition in view of the fact that they did not put down a Motion of their own but have used a "crypto" for the purpose?

Mr. Blackburn

May I very respectfully suggest to the Leader of the House that I do not in any way desire to challenge his statement today. I merely wish to put this to him: that the working class of this country are entitled to know the facts about this matter, they are entitled to have this matter investigated, and are entitled to have this matter investigated by an impartial tribunal? I feel sure that my right hon. Friend is not trying in any way to detract from what he stated when the matter was first raised, namely, that the matter will be fully and effectively dealt with, and I ask him to be good enough to repeat that assurance to the House,

Mr. Morrison

Yes, Sir. Of course, officially, it is not a matter for the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "It is."] It is not—

Mr. R. S. Hudson

The name of the House is involved.

Mr. Morrison

Not the party aspect of it. That is being taken care of, and my hon. Friend will know that and can be assured about it—not that I am accountable about that to the House, of course. Upon the general nature of this matter and the circumstances connected with it, it is far better that it should be left to be dealt with domestically—as a family matter within the political party concerned. I do not believe that matters would be improved or advanced by the appointment of a Select Committee.

Mr. Eden

While we take the view of the right hon. Gentleman that one part of this issue is entirely domestic, we cannot share his view that the other part is domestic. May I, therefore, give notice that we shall seek means to debate that part of the issue which we consider concerns this House as a whole?

Mr. Wilson Harris

Can the right hon. Gentleman say anything about the possibility of a Debate on Foreign Affairs in the near future?

Mr. Morrison

Yes, Sir. Conversations have taken place through the usual channels and it is anticipated that a Foreign Affairs Debate will take place the week after next.

Mr. Emrys Hughes

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Government are making themselves supremely ridiculous at the present time by giving time to a Bill for increasing the emoluments of the Lord High Commissioner of the Church of Scotland? Will he consider allowing the House a free vote before this Measure is passed?

Mr. Morrison

The hon. Gentleman may conceivably get an opportunity to put his views when the item comes up, but as to the idea of a free vote, the answer is in the negative.

Mr. Pickthorn

Reverting to the last question but two, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether the domestic tribunal of which he has spoken, which I understand is under the chairmanship of the Secretary of State for War, will publish its findings of fact and the reasons for them?

Mr. Speaker

I thought we had disposed of that.

Hon. Members

No.

Mr. Osborne rose—

Mr. Speaker

The Clerk will now proceed to read the Orders of the Day.

Mr. Pickthorn

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker—

Mr. Speaker

I said that the Clerk will now proceed to read the Orders of the Day.