HC Deb 21 April 1948 vol 449 cc1907-17

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Hogg

I am sorry that the two Amendments which stood in my name have not commended themselves to the Chair, but I feel that some part of what I wished to say on those Amendments would be in Order on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill." The Clause provides that this Bill may be cited as the Representation of the People Act, 1948. It further provides that it shall be included among the Acts which may be cited as the Representation of the People Acts, —a long series of honourable Acts of Parliament.

So much has happened since this Bill was first introduced that I fear this title the "Representation of the People Act" is no longer appropriate or happy in the circumstances, and it would be a mockery to include it, as the second part of this Clause does, in that long line of Representation of the People Acts which great Liberal and Conservative Governments in the past carried into law. A more appropriate title to this Bill would be the "Representation of the Labour Party Bill," and I was prepared to advance numerous arguments to support this title as being the more appropriate of the two. I fear, however, as we are simply upon the Motion, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill" that I am bound to criticise the title which is in the Clause without offering any arguments in support of an alternative title. If I do so I hope I shall not be criticised by hon. Members opposite as one who has no constructive alternative to offer.

I do not consider that this Bill should be described by this honourable name. There are hon. Members opposite who in public and in private have told me that the name is appropriate on the grounds that the Labour Party will lose representation if all the provisions of the Bill are carried into effect, but that is not an argument of principle. It is true, of course, that the party opposite has for years enjoyed a number of rotten or pocket boroughs, which could no longer be justified on any satisfactory system of representation. It is true that the provisions of this Bill, in so far as they carry out the original recommendations of the Speaker's Conference, may be cited as putting away the anomaly of the undue representation of the Labour Party which is undoubtedly one of the features of this Parliament. In that sense the title the "Representation of the People Act" might be thought to be appropriate. I submit humbly to the Committee that that argument is specious rather than genuine, because a Measure is only entitled to be described as the "Representation of the People Act" if it proceeds upon the principle which provides for the better representation of the people. It is precisely at this point that this Bill falls short, and that one is compelled to feel that another title the "Representation of Something Other than the People Act," would be a slightly more appropriate designation. The original number—

The Chairman

I am sure the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that he is not entitled to indulge in a Second Reading speech. He must keep himself precisely to the contents of the Clause and, if he will forgive me for saying so, there is not a great deal that can be said about it which would be in Order.

Mr. Hogg

You would be surprised, Major Milner. I was searching in my own mind for the various things I could say or wanted to say which would also be in Order, and I was trying to be particularly careful to confine myself solely to the two questions raised by this important Clause—first of all, whether it can properly be called the "Representation of the People Act" or not; and, secondly, whether it ought to be cited and included among the series of other Acts known as the Representation of the People Acts, which are familiar to the Committee. As a matter of fact, at the point which I had reached I was going to consider the question whether there was any reason why this particular Bill should be included as one of the series of honourable Acts which great Liberal and Conservative Governments of the past have passed.

I was designing to address to the Committee certain arguments to show that this Bill was not properly one of that series. To begin with, the other Acts, amongst which it is proposed now to include this one and which were all named by the same designation, embodied one of two or three well established constitutional procedures. In the first place, either they were introduced as a result of a General Election, in which the principles embodied in them had been actively canvassed with the electorate, and, therefore, were properly called the Representation of the People Acts

The Chairman

The hon. Gentleman is quite clearly going into the merits and indulging in what might be appropriate on another occasion but not in reference to this Clause. I am afraid he cannot continue on that line.

Mr. Hogg

I am particularly anxious to bow to your Ruling in this matter, Major Milner, but in my submission to the Chair we must consider, if we are including in this Clause a provision that the Bill, which we are now passing in Committee, should be known by a particular name and should be included as one of a series of Acts bearing that particular name.

The Chairman

On that point the only argument which the hon. Member can put is on some technical ground and not on the merits. It he were able to say that on some technical ground it was not appropriate that this Act should be included he would be in Order, but in my view he is not in Order in dealing with the merits.

Mr. Hogg

I am afraid I was not making myself clear. I was not for the moment seeking to suggest that this was not a perfectly good Bill in its own way. That is a question on which no doubt I have strong views, but I should be out of Order if I tried to press them on the Committee at this stage. Nor was I trying to suggest that the other Acts, which are to be included in this Bill under this Clause by the came designation, were not perfectly good Acts in their own way. I was solely addressing myself to the cold, technical question whether this Bill can properly be called the Representation of the People Act, and I was seeking to compare this Bill, to which this name is sought to be given—

The Chairman

The hon. Member will, I am sure, appreciate that so soon as he begins to do that, he begins to discuss the merits of the various Acts which are in eluded and that is out of Order.

Mr. Hogg

May I not, with due submission, put this to the Chair on the purely technical question of what is appropriate —supposing that the first 74 Clauses of this Bill contained nothing whatever except a series of provisions regarding the artificial insemination of cattle, and Clause 75 then went on to say: This Act may be cited as the Representation of the People Act, 1948, and…shall be included among the Acts which may be cited as the Representation of the People Acts.

The Chairman

I cannot admit that argument. The hon. Gentleman must resume his seat unless he has some other point to raise.

Mr. Hogg

If the illustration did not meet with your approval, Major Milner, I will gladly withdraw it and substitute any other. The point, and the sole point, which I was trying to put to you was that, supposing it to be true as a matter of principle that the other 74 Clauses have nothing whatever to do with the title proposed in the 75th Clause, which is what I submit to be the case here—

The Chairman

The hon. Gentleman knows that that is a frivolous and, indeed, an impossible argument. In any event, it does not apply in this case, and, therefore, it is quite irrelevant.

Mr. Hogg

With respect to the Chair and further to that point of Order, do I understand, Major Milner, that you are now ruling from the Chair that the title is an appropriate title? With respect, that is the matter which the Committee is entitled to discuss on the Question that Clause 75 stand part of the Bill. I am seeking the right from you, as Chairman, to put before the Committee—I am not asking the Committee to accept them if they do not care to do so—arguments which are designed to show that the title is inappropriate to the Bill because the contents of the Bill do not fit in with the title. It must be proper at some stage of a Bill that this should be the subject of some discussion. I submit that I must be in Order in putting an argument of that character—

The Chairman

That argument might have been perfectly appropriate on Second Reading, but it is certainly not appropriate now. The hon. Gentleman will forgive me, but it seems to me quite impossible to carry on an argument on the lines he is proposing without in some sense impinging on the general merits of the Bill, and he is not entitled to do that. The only matters I can think of to which he can properly address himself are technical matters. It appears that he does not desire to address himself to such matters. That being the case, I must rule him out of Order and ask him to resume his seat.

Mr. Hogg

Further to that point of Order. I am not addressing the Committee on the subject of the Clause but putting a point of Order. This is the Clause which gives the Bill a title. I submit that it is a technical matter and that it is within the Rules of Order, on the Question that the Clause stand part of the Bill, to argue that the title is totally inappropriate to the nature of the Bill. I am submitting that whereas it would be conceded that the merits of the Bill, be they good, bad or indifferent, are inappropriate and out of Order, nevertheless the contents of the Bill are appropriate in the general sense, and if it can be shown that the title of the Bill is totally inappropriate to the contents, it must be open to discussion that the title ought not to be passed.

Mr. Tolley (Kidderminster)

On a point of Order, is the hon. Member—

Mr. Hogg

I am on a point of Order. This is not the ordinary short title Clause. This is a Clause which says, first of all, that this Bill shall be given a particular name and, secondly, that it shall be cited, with certain other Bills, as the Representation of the People Acts. I submit that it must be open to the Committee, on discussion of the Question whether this Clause shall stand part of the Bill, to discuss the matter without in the least going into the merits of the other Acts, which is something which I should not in any way seek to do. It must be in Order to suggest as a purely technical matter of Parliamentary draftmanship, without going into the other question at all, that this series of Acts ought not to be known by the same designation but ought perhaps to be known by a series of designations.

8.45 p.m.

The Chairman

Perhaps it is not clear to the hon. Gentleman but it is clear to me, and, I hope, to the Committee that if the hon. Gentleman's argument were to be accepted, its very essence is that he desires to discuss the nature of the Bill. That involves the merits of the Bill. He is not at this stage entitled to make a Second Reading speech or to discuss the merits of the Bill, and that being the case, I must rule him out of Order.

Mr. Byers

Further to that point of Order, Major Milner. I wonder if I could have some clarification, because while I do not agree with very much of what the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Hogg) was saying, he is deploying a line of argument which I was intending to put to the Committee. Surely it is possible to argue on this Clause that the name of the Bill is wrongly conceived, irrespective of the merits of the Bill? I was going to suggest that because it perpetuates an unfair electoral situation, it should be called the Redistribution of Seats and Miscellaneous Electoral Provisions Bill. Surely, it is in Order to make such a protest? If it is not in Order on this Clause, I do not see where it can be in Order.

The Chairman

I must point out that, quite obviously, that proposition involves a review of the Clauses of the Bill and such a review is out of Order at this stage and on this Motion.

Mr. Byers

With all respect—this is an important point—I submit that it does not require a review of any part of the Bill at all. Having arrived at the end of the Bill and looking back on the Bill, we say that it has got the wrong title because of what is contained in the Bill. I suggest that we are entitled to argue that.

Mr. Attewell

On a point of Order, Major Milner, would it not be better if the arguments used by the two hon. Members were used on the stage at the Palladium?

Mr. Hogg

Further to the point of Order by the hon. Member for North Dorset (Mr. Byers), it very often happens that important questions of principle are decided on Rulings of this kind which go rather beyond the nature of the Ruling, and I submit that if your Ruling were to be taken literally, it would mean that when we came to the short title Clause in a Bill in future during a Committee stage, we would no longer be free as a Committee to discuss the appropriateness of the title because we would no longer be free to discuss whether or not the name fitted the Bill. In my submission, that would be a very serious Ruling to have made, and one which would seriously curtail the freedom of Parliamentary discussion. Hon. Members opposite may not have liked what I said about the merits of this Clause—I should not expect them to, and they were not intended to—but it would be a great pity if, because of that, we landed ourselves in a situation in which it was impossible to discuss—

The Chairman

I really cannot allow the argument to continue. I have given, to the best of my ability, a Ruling on the specific question which arises today. As to how far my Rulings will have effect in future, that is a matter for the future. I do not profess to lay down any rules about that.

Mr. C. Williams

I wish to say only a few words and they will be on the technical effect of the words in the Clause. On the word "representation," I would not have dreamt of going into the back Clauses, but I would say that in a technical sense, in reference to the general structure of what has been done in the Bill, that word was a misnomer. I would not say that it was over- or under-representative, and I would not say this or that Clause, but I would like to suggest that in a purely technical sense it is not an accurate matter as far as this Clause is concerned. Now, I will turn to another word about which, Major Milner, I think, you allowed the hon. Member for Oxford to say a word or two, namely, whether the word "people" was accurate or inaccurate in a technical sense. Without going into any argument, I would like to express my own personal opinion that the title of the Bill in the technical sense—

Hon. Members

Order.

The Chairman

The hon. Gentleman has great experience of the Chair, but I must point out that by the mere use of the word "technical" he does not make his argument a technical one, and in my view he is out of Order.

Mr. Williams

I apologise most sincerely. I had no intention whatever of evading your Ruling, Major Milner, I would never dream of doing so.

Mr. Logan (Liverpool, Scotland Division)

On a point of Order, Major Milner; on four occasions you have called hon. Members to Order, and they are still persisting in the same buffoonery. When will they be asked to resume their seats and let the business go on?

The Chairman

I must call on the hon. Member to withdraw the words he used. He is not entitled to cast reflections on hon. Members.

Mr. Logan

With all due respect, and further to what you have just said to me, Major Milner, I am sorry if I have said anything unparliamentary, but, listening to the hon. Members, I find it is an insult to this side of the Committee when they use the term "Labour Party" in substitution for the word "people."

Mr. Hogg

On a point of Order—

Mr. Logan

What is the matter with the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams)?

Mr. Hogg

I must ask you, Major Milner, to direct the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool (Mr. Logan), who is now bouncing up and down in his seat, to withdraw—

Mr. Logan

I did.

Mr. Hogg

I did not hear him withdraw, and I do not believe he did.

Mr. Logan

If the hon. Member did not hear me, I will do it now. If I have said anything unparliamentary I unreservedly withdraw my remarks but, none the less, I say that I am sick and tired of the buffoonery on that side.

Mr. Williams

Of course, I accept entirely the hon. Member's withdrawal. I quite realise that he is bound—

Mr. Logan

I realise it is a lot of tomfoolery.

Mr. Hogg

On a point of Order, Major Milner, I have heard the hon. Gentleman who recently was compelled to withdraw his remarks—

The Chairman

I should be obliged if the hon. Member would permit me to conduct the proceedings from the Chair.

Mr. Hogg

On a point of Order, Major Milner—

The Chairman

The hon. Gentleman has raised a large number of points of Order, several of them being extremely

repetitious ones. He is not entitled to go on doing that indefinitely. He is interrupting and obstructing the business of the Committee. With every respect to the hon. Member, I shall have to direct him in the first instance to resume his seat if he persists in doing that. I call upon Mr. Charles Williams.

Mr. Williams

I should have been fortunate if there had been no interruptions because I should have finished long ago. The apology of the hon. Gentleman I accept absolutely, with the knowledge that I am sent here for the purpose of criticism. As far as the technical side of this Clause is concerned, I have no wish to prolong the discussion, but I emphasise that the title of the Bill is a completely wrong description of the Bill as it stands, and that it should not be called the Representation of the People Bill but should be called the Representation of the Socialist Party Bill.

Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 242; Noes, 78.

Division No. 130. AYES. 8.55 p.m
Adams, Richard (Balham) Cooper, Wing-Comdr, G Gooch, E. G.
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Corlett, Dr. J. Grenfell, D. R.
Alpass, J. H. Cove, W. G Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)
Attewell, H. C. Crawley, A. Guy, W. H.
Austin, H. Lewis Crossman, R. H S Haire, John E. (Wycombe)
Awbery, S. S. Daggar, G. Hale, Leslie
Bacon, Miss A, Daines, P. Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil
Balfour, A. Davies, Harold (Leek) Hamilton, Lt.-Col. R.
Barstow, P. G Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W) Hannan, W. (Maryhill)
Barton, C. Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) Hardy, E. A.
Battley, J. R. Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Harrison, J.
Bechervaise, A. E. Deer, G Hastings, Dr. Somerville
Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F J Delargy, H. J Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Kigswinford)
Benson, G. Diamond, J Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)
Berry, H. Dobbie, W. Herbison, Miss M.
Beswick, F. Dodds, N. N Hewitson, Capt. M
Binns, J. Donovan, T Hobson, C. R.
Blenkinsop, A. Dumpleton, C. W Holman, P
Blyton, W. R. Durbin, E. F M. House, G.
Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge) Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. Hoy, J.
Braddock, T. (Mitcham) Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty) Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr)
Brook, D. (Halifax) Edwards, N. (Caerphilly) Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.)
Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell) Evans, Albert (Islington, W.) Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A
Brown, T. J. (Ince) Evans, E. (Lowestoft) Janner, B.
Bruce, Maj. D. W. T. Evans, John (Ogmore) Jay, D. P. T.
Buchanan, R Hon. G Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury) Jeger, G. (Winchester)
Burden, T. W. Ewart, R. Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)
Burke, W. A. Farthing, W. J Johnston, Douglas
Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S) Fernyhough, E. Jones, D. T. (Hartlepool)
Callaghan, James Field, Capt. W. J Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)
Castle, Mrs. B. A Fletcher, E. G. M (Islington, E.) Jones, J. H. (Bolton)
Champion, A. J Forman, J. C. Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)
Cluse, W S. Fraser, T. (Hamilton) Keenan, W.
Cobb, F. A. Freeman, J. (Watford) Kenyon, C.
Cocks, F S. Gaitskell, Rt. Han H T N Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr E
Coldrick, W Gallacher, W. Kinley, J.
Collick, P. Ganley, Mrs. C S Lawson, Rt. Hon J J
Collindridge F Gibson, C. W. Leonard, W.
Collins, V. J Gilzean, A. Leslie, J. R.
Cook, T F Glanville, J E (Consett) Lindgren, G. S
Lipton, Lt.-Col. M Paton, J. (Norwich) Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)
Logan, D. G. Pearson, A. Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)
Lyne, A. W Peart, T. F. Thurtle, Ernest
McAdam, W Perrins, W. Tiffany, S.
McAllister, G. Platts-Mills, J. F. F Titterington, M. F
McEntee, V. La T Popplewell, E, Tolley, L.
McGhee, H. G. Porter, E (Warring on) Turner-Samuels, M
Mack, J. D. Price, M. Philips Ungoed-Thomas, L
Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.) Pursey, Cmdr. H Usborne, Henry
McKinlay, A. S. Randall, H E. Vernon, Maj. W. F
Maclean, N. (Govan) Ranger, J. Viant, S. P.
McLeavy, F. Rankin, J. Walkden, E.
Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Reeves, J. Walker, G. H.
Mann, Mrs. J. Reid, T. (Swindon) Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E)
Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.) Rhodes, H. Warbey, W. N.
Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping) Richards, R. Watkins, T. E.
Marshall, D. (Bodmin) Ridealgh, Mrs. M Watson, W. M
Mathers, Rt. Hon. George Robens, A. Weitzman, D.
Mayhew, C. P. Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire) Wells, P. L. (Faversham)
Mellish, R J. Sargood, R. Wells, W. T. (Walsall)
Middleton, Mrs. L. Scollan, T. West, D. G.
Millington, Wing-Comdr E R Scott-Elliot, W. Wheatley, Rt. Hn. J. T. (Edinb'gh, E.)
Mitchison, G. R Sharp, Granville White, C. F. (Derbyshire, W)
Moody, A. S. Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes) Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W
Morley, R. Shurmer, P.
Morgan, Dr. H. B. Silverman, J. (Erdington) Wilkes, L.
Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C) Simmons, C. J. Wilkins, W. A.
Morris, P. (Swansea, W.) Skinnard, F. W. Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)
Smith, C. (Colchester) Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)
Mort, D. L. Smith, Ellis (Stoke) Williams, D. J. (Neath)
Moyle, A. Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.) Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)
Mulvey, A Sorensen, R. W. Williams, R. W. (Wigan)
Murray, J. D Soskice, Sir Frank Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)
Nally, W Sparks, J. A Willis, E.
Naylor, T. E. Steele, T. Woodburn, A
Neal, H. (Claycross) Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.) Woods, G. S.
Nicholls, H. R (Stratford) Stross, Dr. B, Young, Sir R. (Newton)
Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford) Stubbs, A. E. Younger, Hon. Kenneth
O'Brien, T. Sylvester, G. O. Zilliacus, K.
Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)
Pargiter, G. A. Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Parker, J. Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet) Mr. Snow and
Paton, Mrs F (Rushcliffe) Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare) Mr. George Wallace.
NOES.
Baldwin, A. E. Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C) Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)
Birch, Nigel Kendall, W. D. Prescott, Stanley
Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells) Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H Rayner, Brig, R,
Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. Lindsay, M. (Solihull) Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)
Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G. Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.) Renton, D.
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral) Robinson, Roland
Byers, Frank Lucas-Tooth, Sir H. Sanderson, Sir F.
Carson, E. McCallum, Maj. D. Scott, Lord W.
Challen, C. MacDonald, Sir M. (Inverness) Smiles. Lt.-Col. Sir W
Clarke, Col. R. S. McFarlane, C. S. Snadden, W. M.
Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow) Maclean, F. H. R. (Lancaster) Spearman, A. C. M
Davidson, Viscountess Marshall, D. (Bodmin) Spence, H. R.
Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery) Marshall, S. H. (Sutton) Sutcliffe, H.
Dodds-Parker A. D. Maude, J. C. Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S)
Drayson, G. B Medlicott, Brigadier F Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)
Fraser, H. C. P. (Stone) Mellor, Sir J. Thornton-Kemsley, C. N
Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale) Molson, A. H. E. Turton, R. H.
Gage, C. Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T Vane, W. M. F.
Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury) Wadsworth, G.
George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey) Mullan, Lt. C. H. Wakefield, Sir W. W.
Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. Nicholson, G. Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E)
Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley) Noble, Comdr. A. H P White, Sir D. (Fareham)
Harvey, Air-Cmdre, A. V. Odey, G. W. Williams, C. (Torquay)
Haughton, S. G. O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H York, C.
Henderson, John (Cathcart) Peake, Rt. Hon. O.
Hinchingbrooke, Viscount Peto, Brig, C. H. M TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh, W.) Ponsonby, Col. C. E. Mr. Frederic Harris and
Mr. Hogg.

Question put, and agreed to.