CLAUSE 44.—(Penalty for illegal canvassing by police officers.) (Hansard, 21 April 1948)

§ Mr. Boyd-Carpenter (Kingston-upon-Thames)
I wish to raise a point on the first Subsection. I quite agree that it is essential to limit the activities of policemen in connection with elections, but I wonder whether, on looking into the matter again, the Home Secretary would think this goes a little too far. It seems to me that if a policeman is asked by his wife for his views on the desirability of supporting one candidate against another, if he answered there would be a technical offence. Without derogating in any 1833 way from a general restriction against using the police for one party or candidate, I wonder whether we have gone a little too far in this Subsection and whether, if it were strictly enforced, it would be a little oppressive on the police. There may be a perfectly good answer, but on first reading the Subsection it does seem a little odd.

Mr. McKie
I rise to ask a question about Subsection (2, b), which refers to Northern Ireland. The Committee have just agreed to an Amendment, to insert "as references." With that Amendment the paragraph reads: In relation to Northern Ireland, as references to a member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and to Northern Ireland. Would the Home Secretary be good enough to enlighten me as to why it is necessary to use the words "and to Northern Ireland"? It does not say anything about any other police force which may exist in Northern Ireland so that it might mean "to any member of the general public" in Northern Ireland. This phrase seems to me to require a little more elucidation. I should have thought that the hon. Member for Fermanagh and Tyrone (Mr. Mulvey) might have required a little information about that. There is an Amendment on the Order Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) which went somewhat further than this paragraph—in line 28, after "Constabulary," to insert: or of any other police force under the management or control of the Government of Northern Ireland. That Amendment was not called. I am not indicating that the hon. Member was seeking the right way to deal with the matter or that I would be prepared to accept that Amendment. It is unlikely that I should ever agree to any Amendment the hon. Member moved except the one which he moved in the recent all-night Sitting. I would like to hear the hon. Member's argument, as it might go a little way to clear up the whole position as to why the use of the phrase "and to Northern Ireland" is included in this Clause.
I should also like to associate myself with what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter). He has difficulty 1834 in understanding why Subsection (1) should be drawn so severely as it is. He was, of course, speaking from the point of view of England and Wales. I am concerned to know how it may operate in Scotland. It may operate just as severely there as my hon. Friend thought it might do south of the Tweed. I hope that in expressing that doubt I shall have with me every Scottish Member on the other side of the Committee. I urge the Home Secretary, in regard to my first point about Northern Ireland, which is exciting the hon. Member for Fermanagh and Tyrone, to give us a little more light on the subject and clear away the lingering doubt which I have in my mind, and which it is obvious the hon. Member also has.

§ Mr. Bing (Hornchurch)
I wonder whether the Home Secretary feels that this Clause really gives him sufficient power to deal with police interference with elections in Northern Ireland. I should say that there are two types of police in Northern Ireland. Subsection (2, b) refers only to one sort, the more regular sort of police. It is the irregular type of police who unfortunately most often interfere in the elections. Hon. Members will know of a report which was signed by a gentleman who sat opposite, Mr. William McKeag, and also by my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu) as well as by Miss Margery Fry. It was a report on conditions in Northern Ireland, in which the use of this police force in elections was described in the following terms—

§ Sir Ronald Ross (Londonderry)
What was the date of it?

§ Mr. Bing
I am glad to note that the hon. Member for Londonderry (Sir R. Ross) is here. He always takes an opportunity to interrupt me. I shall be raising a point later upon which I should like him to interrupt. This report was issued in 1936. In regard to the B. Special Constabulary, it says: More than tour times as numerous as the R.U.C. the B. Specials are a trained and organised force having control of or access to official stores"—

§ The Chairman
I think that the Special Constabulary have no relation to this Clause, which relates to what the hon. Member termed the regular Police Force. I see nothing about any irregular police force here.

§ Mr. Bing
With respect, the argument I was addressing to the Committee was that while this is a Clause dealing with police, it only deals, so far as Northern Ireland is concerned, with one type of police force.

§ The Chairman
Yes, but the hon. Member is dealing with some other body than the regular Police Force. Quite clearly that would not be relevant to a Clause which deals with the police proper.

§ Mr. Bing
May I refer to the Civil Authorities (Special Powers) Act, in which the police are defined for Northern Ireland purposes as the Royal Ulster Constabulary and these various auxilliary forces—

§ The Chairman
I am afraid I cannot permit the hon. Member to continue. What he is saying does not appear to come within the purview of this Clause.

Mr. MeKinlay
On a point of Order. If the special police are under the control of the North of Ireland Government, and can be used at elections, surely it is in Order, although they are not specifically mentioned here, to discuss them in relation to this matter?

§ The Chairman
I am afraid I cannot agree. There is nothing in this Clause about special police or anything of that sort, and I cannot permit further discussion on that subject.

§ Mr. David Jones (The Hartlepools)
Are we to understand, Major Milner, that your Ruling means that this Police Force is entitled to interfere in elections in Northern Ireland?

§ The Chairman
No, the hon. Member must not interpret what I said as expressing any opinion on that matter but merely as calling the hon. Member to Order on the point that on a Clause dealing with a Police Force he could not deal with some other force, as he was endeavouring to do.

§ Mr. Frank Byers (Dorset, Northern)
I am at a loss to understand this Ruling, Major Milner. I do not see why it is not possible for the hon. Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) to argue that this Clause should not stand part of the Bill because he wants to insert in the Clause some reference to special or auxiliary police forces. If he is not allowed to argue that point it is difficult to see at what point of the Bill he can do so. I 1836 always thought that on Committee stage one could argue that a certain Clause or provision should be inserted or that a Clause should not stand part because such a provision is not included.

§ The Chairman
The hon. Member will appreciate that the Amendment of the hon. Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) has not been selected, and the hon. Member can therefore only deal with what is in the Clause.

§ Mr. Bing
If I may continue, what I was saying can refer to police generally, which will come within the purview of what is in Order. I was about to say that the police in Northern Ireland, whatever type they are, have a great many powers. They are entitled to arrest people on suspicion without warrant; they are entitled to search premises without warrant and to stop vehicles anywhere; they have power to stop and interrogate anyone. In these circumstances it seems to me that there ought to be a very clear line drawn as to what power this Bill contains.
I referred at an earlier stage to police action in an Armagh by-election. In that case the police took their rifles and fired them off. The defence which was offered by the Northern Ireland Minister of Home Affairs, and it is an understandable defence, was that this incident really had no effect on the election result because the shooting took place after the result had been declared, and secondly, that the man who was wounded was one of their own supporters. It is clearly quite improper that police should be permitted to fire off their rifles during an election campaign, and the people may well think that if their rifles were fired off after the campaign they—

§ The Chairman
The hon. Member seems to be addressing his remarks, as he has done on previous occasions, to a general tirade against some unofficial or so-called police force in Northern Ireland. It does not seem to me that that is relevant. This Clause lays down certain penalties for illegal canvassing, etc. by police' officers. The fact that some other body took some other action on some other occasion is not relevant. The hon. Member must address himself to the terms of this Clause. I cannot allow him to engage in the kind of animadversions in which he is and has been indulging in this matter.

§ Mr. Bing
The point I was trying to make was that I was objecting to canvassing by police with their rifles.

§ Mr. Mulvey (Fermanagh and Tyrone)
As the B Special Constabulary in Northern Ireland is a recognised Police Force of the Northern Ireland Government, and as it interferes in election time, is it not permissible on an occasion like this, to discuss their actions? The Special Constabulary in Northern Ireland numbers about 10,000. The number has recently been given by the Ministry of Home Affairs—

§ The Chairman
I am assured that the Special Constabulary, as the hon. Member terms it, does not come within the term of "police force" to which this Clause refers. That being so we cannot have a discussion on a body which does not come within the purview of the Clause.

§ Mr. George Porter (Leeds, Central)
The Clause says: No member of a police force… That surely presumes more than one police force, or the words would be "the police force"?

§ The Chairman
The hon. Member will observe that the term is further defined in Subsection (2), and refers to certain specific police forces. I am assured by the Home Secretary that the special force to which reference has been made does not come within any of those definitions. That being so, it is out of Order to refer to them.

§ Mr. McKinlay
If it is out of Order to discuss what is undoubtedly a police force with the backing of the Government of Northern Ireland, may I ask whether it would be legal or illegal for the Government of Northern Ireland to use that constabulary for electioneering purposes and to exclude the R.U.C.? I hope that the Home Secretary can give us an answer. I wish to say—

§ The Chairman
I understood the hon. Member was addressing his remarks to me. He may be entitled to address them to the Home Secretary, but I cannot answer his question.

§ Mr. Ede
Subsection (1) of the Clause does not apply to special constables. A special constable is entitled to canvass. He is an ordinary citizen who has entered 1838 into certain obligations with relation to the police, but it would be most iniquitous, certainly in England and Wales, to say that because a man was a special constable he could not participate in an election by canvassing. An ordinary member of the Police Force, that is a uniformed constable, is in an entirely different category and this Clause is the means of putting certain limits on his activities in elections.

§ Mr. Beverley Baxter (Wood Green)
Does not the Home Secretary think that the opening words of this Clause—I know that this has been raised by the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter)—

§ Mr. Ede
I shall deal with that later. I am now dealing only with the point of Order.

§ Mr. Bing
Further to that point of Order. If what the Home Secretary has said is the position, that this Clause does not, in fact, refer to the special constabulary, surely it is in Order on the Motion, that the Clause stand part, to deplore that it does not refer to the special constabulary in any one particular area.

§ Mr. Ede
The hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames—

§ Mr. Bing
I did make a submission on a point of Order, Major Milner.

§ The Chairman
I do not know what the hon. Member's point was. If he will make it again I should be very much obliged.

§ Mr. Bing
The Home Secretary has said that this Clause does not refer anywhere to special constables. Is it not, therefore, in Order to say that it ought to refer to special constables in one particular area? In my submission such an argument would, in fact, be in Order.

§ The Chairman
The hon. Member puts me in some difficulty in putting an hypothesis of that sort. I have ruled, generally, that this Clause does not permit of reference to bodies other than those mentioned in the Clause, and I think I must adhere to that Ruling.

§ Mr. Scollan (Renfrew, Western)
If it relates only to those referred to in the Clause, it refers to the constabulary. Are we to take it that special constables are not members of the constabulary?

§ The Chairman
So I am advised. I understand the Home Secretary to say that this Clause does not refer to special constables, who we all know have the powers of ordinary citizens, but are not 'subject to the ordinary discipline of the regular Police Force.

§ Mr. Emrys Hughes (South Ayrshire)
I wish to support this Clause, and to point out that it is really a very important part of this Bill. In these days when the police force in some countries is regarded as part of the totalitarian machine—whether it be in Bulgaria, or Poland or Northern Ireland—that we should insist that the Police Force should be absolutely neutral at election time. I can give one—

§ The Chairman
The hon. Member is now arguing the merits of the Clause, and not the point of Order. The hon. Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) had the Floor, if he desires to continue on the merits of the Clause.

§ Mr. Byers
I rose earlier in order to clarify a point. The Home Secretary has said that this Clause does not apply to special constables. I agree, but surely it is open to hon. Members to argue that the Clause should not stand part because it does not include reference to special constables. I submit that if we accept the Ruling which you gave originally, Major Milner, and which you appear to have confirmed, we shall get into grave difficulties. I suggest that, in the interests of this Debate, we ought to have some clarification.

§ Mr. Scollan
May I say that the point I was trying to raise is borne out by the first words of the Clause: No member of a police force. Is a special constable a member of a police force?

§ Mr. Boyd-Carpenter
Look at the second Subsection.

§ The Chairman
I am advised that a special constable is not a member of the police force to which this Clause refers.

§ Mr. Emrys Hughes
On a point of Order. May I be allowed to resume?

§ The Chairman
I called on the hon. Member on a point of Order, and not to make a speech. He was making a speech on the merits.

§ Mr. Emrys Hughes
Am I not in Order in making a speech on the merits?

§ The Chairman
No, I had called the Home Secretary.

§ Mr. Ede
The hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames raises the question as to the wording of the first Subsection of this Clause. This merely re-enacts the existing law. When the police force was established there was great fear in this House that it would be used for political purposes, and it was felt necessary that a police officer should not be allowed to participate in an election as a canvasser or a person who was entitled to argue the merits of the election with people who might be going to and fro on their way to the poll. I think that this is still a wise prohibition to place on the police. I quite agree with what was said by the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes). We do not want it to be thought that the regular police force of this country are participating in elections.
I suggest that it would be very difficult indeed, and that the policeman himself would feel uncomfortable, if one or other of the parties at an election thought that the policeman, who was on duty at 'the entrance to the polling station—or possibly in the polling station—had taken sides with one or the other of the candidates. A policeman enters into a special relationship with the State, and I think that in this particular we are entitled to say that there must be certain disqualifications attaching to his office which do not attach to the ordinary citizen. Whether he would be guilty of an offence if he had a discussion with his wife or daughter as to the way in which his wife or daughter should exercise their vote, I would not like to say. I am quite sure that the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames would like to have the opportunity of appearing in front of a bench of magistrates if the policeman was in fact charged with a breach of the law by having such a discussion with members of his family.
With regard to the question of the hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. McKie), the first part of the Subsection states: In the foregoing Subsection references to a member of a police force and to a police area are to be taken…(b) in relation to Northern Ireland, to a member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary"— 1841 that is the Police Force— and to Northern Ireland"— that is the police area. I think he will agree that the words are necessary in order to make the Clause run.

§ Mr. Emrys Hughes
I have only one point about Scotland which is underlined and emphasised by what the Home Secretary has said. In the country districts of Scotland some very queer things frequently happen on election days, and there has been too much of a tendency in the remote districts of the Highlands of Scotland to regard the policeman as part of the entourage of the laird—something in the nature of a gamekeeper. I have had my attention drawn to a case where the presiding officer went away for two hours to a meal and left the polling station in charge of the local constable, which was really an act of intimidation to the local people. We should make it clear that the village policeman is absolutely neutral and not part of the apparatus of the local Conservative Party.

Mr. Watkins (Brecon and Radnor)
I wish to make one point about the special constables. I represent a constituency which has more polling stations than there are members of the Police Force. If they have to bring in members of the special constabulary to look after polling stations, what is the position of the special—

§ The Chairman
The Clause does not apply to special constables.

§ Mr. Butcher (Holland with Boston)
I wish to take the opportunity of telling the Home Secretary how wise I think he is in confining this restriction imposed upon the Police Force to members of the regular force. If it were extended to members of other bodies, it would be obvious that he would run into all kinds of difficulties. May I remind the hon. Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Bing) that in certain places members of irregular forces behave in an irregular way. It would be just as easy to refer to certain Members of the Labour Party because they are fellow travellers with Marxists. We must deal with these things on a commonsense basis, and I congratulate the Home Secretary.

§ Mr. Mulvey
The Home Secretary assumes that a special constable is not a member of the constabulary force under this Bill. Will he assume that a special constable of Northern Ireland will not take part in an election?

§ Mr. Ede
I cannot make any such assumption. All I say is that this Clause does not apply to special constables.

Mr. McKie
I thank the Home Secretary for his gracious reply to me. I hope that he will not take as gospel truth the serious allegations made about the Police Force in Scotland by the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes). I have a longer experience than the hon. Member—it is my country and it is not his—and I very much deprecate the kind of insinuations which he made. He had not any grounds for allegations. He could only take refuge in insinuations. I very much resent the kind of insinuations which he made about the Police Force in Scotland. He said something about a case where, as I understood him, at a rural polling station the presiding officer had to go away for necessary refreshment. After all, it is a long time—13 hours—and it is always the custom for the presiding officer to take refreshment. As the Home Secretary knows, he is entitled to some kind of refreshment—

§ Mr. Ede
He is not entitled to leave the polling booth unattended by any person appointed by the returning officer to act.

Mr. McKie
That may well be. I was not attempting to suggest that that was the case. Some provision has to be made. But I very much resent the allegations of the hon. Member and I do not take as literal truth the case he mentioned of a presiding officer leaving his duties for two hours in charge of the local police constable. I emphatically reject the suggestion that members of the Police Force in Scotland, and particularly in rural Scotland, are merely servants of the laird. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I would ask the hon. Member to look up a speech made by the late Campbell Stephen, an hon. Member of this House for many years. Speaking on the Police Force, he said that, while he had no love for a Police Force as such, he did pay a strong tribute indeed to the individual 1843 members of the force in Scotland. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will take those words to heart and that the Home Secretary will not pay attention to what he said.

Mr. Watkins
I do not very often assert my rights in this House, but I am going to assert my right as a Member of Parliament to get definite information about this matter of canvassing by police officers. There are a greater number of polling stations in my constituency than there are members of the regular Police Force, so that there are not sufficient police to look after them. If special constables are brought in what is their position if they have been looking after the interests of one candidate? I want to get an assurance that none of these people will be employed if they are taking part in an election.

§ Mr. Ede
In constituencies like that of my hon. Friend, the chief constable is placed in a difficulty. He must rely, as I am certain he is entitled to rely, on the good sense of the people appointed to act on the day to observe the traditions of fair play, whatever they may have done before that day. I know the hon. Gentleman's constituency fairly well and I think that there would be no difficulty in getting sufficient special constables of high character to carry out these duties.

§ Mr. Bing
In view of the discussion which has just taken place on the subject of special constables, would I be in order in addressing an argument to the Committee on this subject?

§ The Chairman
I am afraid not, if it is on the same lines as the hon. Gentleman's previous argument.