CLAUSE 3.—(Probation.) (Hansard, 15 April 1948)

§ Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner)
Mr. Ede.

§ Sir T. Moore
On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Do I gather that you are not calling the Amendment in my name, in Clause 2, page 2, to leave out lines 16 to 18?

§ Mr. Deputy-Speaker
That Amendment has not been selected by Mr. Speaker.

§ Sir T. Moore
May I submit that the recent decision to abolish corporal punishment makes a very important change in 1220 our social and judicial conditions? May I also ask if your reason is that the matter—

§ Mr. Deputy-Speaker
I am sorry, but the hon. and gallant Member knows that it is not customary for the occupant of the Chair to give any reason. I can only say that Mr. Speaker has not selected the Amendment. I am afraid that we cannot have any argument upon its merits.

§ Sir T. Moore
I am not asking for reasons but merely submitting a reason why you might possibly change your mind, if you were to listen just for one more minute—for one more second.

§ Mr. Deputy-Speaker
Mr. Speaker has made the decision and not Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I must clearly abide by Mr. Speaker's decision.

§ Sir T. Moore
Would it not be possible for you to submit to Mr. Speaker the excellent arguments I might raise, in sufficient time for a change to be made?

§ Captain Marsden (Chertsey)
On that point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Surely, you represent Mr. Speaker on this occasion? I most respectfully urge that the situation has very materially altered since this point was discussed in Committee, by reason of the decision to abolish the death penalty. That means a revolution in all forms of punishment. We decided this matter in Committee, but surely in the changed conditions we ought to allow the whole House to decide whether whipping should be another possible form of punishment under the new conditions?

§ Mr. Deputy-Speaker
No doubt all these matters have been considered by Mr. Speaker, and he has taken his decision.

§ Sir T. Moore
I think there is one argument of which Mr. Speaker was unaware at the time, and that is that, when the 1938 Bill, which was the predecessor of this Bill, was being discussed in this House, the then Home Secretary gave an undertaking that there would be a free vote of the House on this very subject.

§ Mr. Deputy-Speaker
That may be. The hon. and gallant Gentleman has made his representations to Mr. Speaker, and I am afraid that I cannot on those grounds stray from the decision not to select his Amendment.

§ Mr. Emrys Hughes
Do the same arguments apply to the Amendment to line 16—after "court," to insert "or by any other authority"—standing in my name? I certainly have not discussed this at all with Mr. Speaker, and, with due respect to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I suggest that this discussion has followed the points raised by the lawyers in the Committee, and that the legal points have been discussed and the human ones lost entirely.

§ Mr. Deputy-Speaker
Mr. Ede.

§ Mr. Ede
I beg to move in page 2, line 26, to leave out "and home surroundings."
This is a drafting Amendment which arose on the discussion initiated by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller) who suggested that the words "and home surroundings" in this context did not fulfil the objects we have in view. During the Committee stage, we inserted them in another place in the Bill, but, at that time, we had passed this point, and, therefore, in order to prevent repetition in the Bill and to give this Subsection the meaning which we intended, I beg to submit the present Amendment.

§ Mr. Manningham-Buller
I think I should express my thanks to the right hon. Gentleman.