DOCKS AND DOCKYARDS, SCOTLAND (Hansard, 27 October 1947)

§ Colonel J. R. H. Hutchison (Glasgow, Central)
The matter to which I wish to draw the attention of this honourable, if somewhat attenuated, House is one which merits a greater occasion than this; but the system of legislation and discussion which the present Government have adopted forces this important Scottish question to be treated in this comparatively minor way. The two subjects to which I wish to draw the attention of the House tonight are the present and future position of Rosyth, and the necessity for a large-scale graving dock on the River Clyde.
In order to grasp the picture adequately, it is necessary to go back just a little while in history. In the first world war, that tremendous concourse of naval ships known as the Grand Fleet found sanctuary in Scottish waters almost throughout the whole of the war—in the Firth of Forth, Rosyth, and Cromarty Firth. And so was vindicated the action of the Admiralty which, in 1903, had formulated plans to turn Rosyth into a first-class naval base, and which in 1909 had partly, at least, completed its plan. The Admiralty had created the only dockyard in the United Kingdom which, at any state of the tide and at any time of the night or day, could harbour the whole of the Grand Fleet. That, in itself, one would imagine, would have given Rosyth pride of place in all considerations of naval strategy, and 657 it is to the naval strategy question that I should like to draw the attention of the House, because strategy must be paramount and all other considerations, weighty though they be, must, ultimately, depend on strategic conception.
At the same time that Rosyth was extended by the Admiralty, very considerable expenditure was undertaken by the local authorities there to keep the roadways and buildings up to date and in step with what the Admiralty was doing. It was with a good deal of surprise and consternation that we saw, after the war was finished, the Grand Fleet sail south. There followed a period of gloom and despair in that part of Scotland to which I refer. It seemed as though a great dust-sheet had been taken out and spread over a set of valuable furniture no longer in use. The priceless advantage of Scottish waters during that war was forgotten—until the next war came along. I said that we saw with surprise the Fleet move south because of the expert opinions which had been given. Earl Beatty, in January, 1919, said these words, supported almost in their entirety by Vice-Admiral Sir John Green, who was Admiral-Superintendent at Rosyth. I ask hon. Members to listen to these prescient words: The Firth of Forth in war-time has been the principal naval base of the greatest Fleet that has ever sailed the seas. I maintain that it should remain so. We have built a great dockyard—the most modern. We have an anchorage capable of receiving the greatest Fleet in the world. There are few on the coasts of Great Britain which are capable of doing so, and, although strategical reasons which have necessitated the development of the Firth of Forth do not appear on the surface very apparent at present, for the time being the Firth of Forth is as good a place as any other and, having been developed and vast moneys having been spent upon it, it should be used. Those words, falling from those lips, might have been calculated to bear considerable weight. When the second world war came along, we find, suddenly, the gloom and despair which had settled over Rosyth changed to something far different. All is bustle to get the place ready for the Fleet again. This time, we see a new Scottish waterway come into the picture—the Firth of Clyde. Once again, mighty fleets are concentrated in those parts. Is it surprising when one realises the relative invulnerability from air attack of the Clyde, as well as the Forth? It was a splendid invulnerability, and the invulner- ability 658 ability from sea attack was almost complete Whatever attack may come in the future, be it by atomic bomb, guided rocket, or other missile, it will find a far more difficult target in Scotland than in the south of England. Yet, we see money spent on the development of Devonport, Chatham, and Portsmouth, which were ports virtually put out of action in the early stages of the last war. It is with regret that we heard today of flotilla after flotilla going into these ports in the south of England—Portland, Portsmouth, Chatham, Devonport—but not one to the bases to which I have referred; bases which have served this country well in two world wars.
May I turn for a moment to the Clyde? During this second world war, the Clyde was the scene of a concourse of ship ping, both battleships and transports, such as this country has never seen be fore. There ended one of those all-important Atlantic sea-lanes, by which this country's supplies of food and munitions were, in fact, brought across, and he would be a bold man today who would say that there is going to be no more war. If he says there is going to be more war, I ask where is it coming from—from the Atlantic or from Europe? There can only be one answer to that, and so once again we can expect to see these same naval waters in the Firth of Clyde harbouring the same ships, and playing the same important rôle in the supplies of this country. Convoys will once again have to be assembled as they were in the last war. Repairs will have to be carried out. Ships will have to be equipped. I say repairs will have to be carried out, because some repairs were carried out to those great vessels during the last war. But they were limited re pairs. Under-water repairs were carried out only on the smaller vessels and only floating repairs on the big vessels which came into the Firth of Clyde.
Surely, it is an anomaly that the Clyde, which can build and has built the biggest vessels which sail the seas, the "Queen Elizabeth" and the "Vanguard," can no longer repair these vessels in dry dock once they leave. The River Clyde is probably the greatest basin in Britain or in the world devoted to shipbuilding and marine engineering. Yet once these vessels sail on the great wide seas any under-water repairs which have to be 659 carried out to them have to be carried out elsewhere, though the skill and experience are still there in the Clyde, and time and money are wasted in transferring it to the ships which are in some other area for under-water repairs. At the same time there may be grave risk to the ships themselves. This was perfectly clear to the Admiralty in 1944, because they wrote to the Greenock Harbour Authorities and the Clyde Trustees asking them to formulate plans for a graving dock, the dimensions of which were to be 1,200 by 135 by 46. Both these authorities sent their plans to the Admiralty. It is no part of my case to plead the claims of one or the other authority, but I am reinforced in my argument by the findings of that admirable report which came to be known as the Cooper Report, and which advocated that somewhere in the Clyde estuary a graving dock of this kind should be prepared.
Not only that, but the Clyde and the part which I am examining tonight is a Development Area. We see the Government bending their efforts to try to develop industries there. Very welcome though they are, they are foreign to many of the workers in that area. To use a mixed metaphor, it would be more "up the Clyde's street" if it were given the dry dock which it requires and for which it has the skill and experience, to carry out that work which has been the bread and butter of the workmen of the area almost for generations. So as a Development Area scheme, this project should be pushed forward and set on foot.
On the Clyde trade is dwindling. Already in 1946 it was half what it was in 1938, and in January of this year the Clyde Trustees found it necessary to increase the dues by 25 per cent. approximately over what they had been up to that date. Then coal, upon which the port of Glasgow and the Clyde in general depended so much as an export, has entirely disappeared, and so shipping depression has hit the Clyde. It has fallen heavily upon the Clyde and it is a measure such as this that would restart, and refurnish the possibilities, and the activities of that area. I know that the question of economy looms large before everybody's eyes at the present time, but I submit to the Government that economies which could not be endured are economies in those things which will be 660 immediately productive. That is the whole of the Government's task at the present time: to distinguish between capital expenditure which will be immediately productive and that which will be only productive in the more distant future. A graving dock of these dimensions would be immediately productive. It has a strategical importance and a Development Area importance. Therefore, I press for this measure.
Back in 1944 a deputation came from-Scotland to wait upon the now Minister of Defence, when the claims of Rosyth were pressed. They were informed that that would be given the gravest consideration. Between that day and now only a deep silence has reigned. It is as though the Government had adopted as an example Rodin's statue "The Thinker" and were lost in permanent thought. But while they are deep in thought, Rosyth is deep in anxiety and in decay. I press for a decision now. Scotland presses for this. All we have heard today is lamentably poor talk from the Minister of Defence who tries to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds and say that while we are weak we are really strong. I accept this from him at its face value, that at the moment we are reducing ourselves to a situation of comparative impotence intending later on to strengthen our Fleet again, and that once again these important ships are to be at our disposal. If they are to be at our disposal, and if there is danger of war these battleships once again are going to leave for these waters of Scotland which have furnished anchorage for them in two world wars. I am reminded of the poem by Kipling of the soldier about whom; while he is fighting, it is a case of "Tommy here and Tommy there" but when the fighting is over he is forgotten. If the House will substitute the name "Jock" for "Tommy," they will realise pretty clearly how Scotland feels on these matters.

§ Mr. Willis (Edinburgh, North)
I am sure we are, indebted to the hon. and gallant Member for Central Glasgow (Colonel Hutchison) for having raised this matter. I cannot quite agree with him, however, that this hole-and-corner method is the only way he has of raising this matter. It has been raised often in the House and a great many speeches have been made about it. I would like to remind him that it was the Tories who 661 closed it previously. I would also like to remind him that the fact that there is no graving dock on the Clyde is a comment on Tory administration in the past. Hon. Members opposite do not like the truth. They like to condemn the Government for what it is not doing conveniently forgetting of course, that these problems are not new problems
Having said that, I would like to support the plea that an early decision should be made about Rosyth. The arguments are familiar and the question is important in the minds of the Scottish people. Rosyth's natural advantages, which have been fully appreciated in two wars, are well known. The fact that it is probably the finest and most up-to-date dockyard in this country today is also well known and I do not think we should allow Rosyth once again to be closed down whilst a dockyard built hundreds of years ago, and completely out of date and unable to take a modern battleship, should be left. But, of course, we want for Rosyth something more than a mere dockyard. We want Rosyth as a manning port. The Admiralty says they have manning ports near London because London is a large recruiting area. That argument is good up to a point, but I think we have to remember that if we want to get the full interest of Scotland in the Navy, we have to get a manning port in Scotland, and we have not got that up to the present. One could say a great deal about the advantages of Rosyth, but I have time only to press the Government to make a decision early for these reasons.
There is a great deal of anxiety being felt by the people working in Rosyth as to their future. There is a great deal of anxiety in the district and locality concerning what is to be the future of Rosyth. The local authority is unable to plan ahead because it does not know what is going to happen. In fact, the whole of Scotland is concerned in this matter, and there is a limit to the period during which people and local authorities can be kept in suspense. Finally, might I urge this point? At the present juncture we are considering new cuts in the Services expenditure. Surely, it is time that a decision was arrived at quickly as to which docks are to be closed and which are not. It seems to me that in the present circumstances there is no argument at all for delay. The Admiralty 662 knows the position of the docks; it knows the urgency of a graving dock on the Clyde; it knows that very rapidly there is to be a reduction in the Services and so the quicker a decision is made the better satisfied will be the people of Scotland.

§ The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. W. J. Edwards)
Might I mention at the outset that I was rather pleased that I had to reply to this matter on the Adjournment, because since I have had the privilege of holding my present position, I have learned quite a lot about Rosyth Dockyard and the proposed graving dock on the Clyde. Scottish Members see that this House is reminded of the anxiety with which they look for a statement with regard to the permanency of Rosyth Dockyard and the commencement of a scheme for a graving dock on the Clyde. There really is not a lot that I can tell the House in addition to what has been stated in reply to the very large number of Questions which have been put on the Order Paper since 1945. I must admit that the Scottish Members who have put these Questions on the Order Paper, and perhaps people living in Scotland, have not had a lot of satisfaction out of the replies, but I must say that one does not always give a positive reply to Questions put down in this House. It seems that there is no other answer suitable to Scottish Members on this issue.
I agree entirely with what was said by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Glasgow (Colonel Hutchison) with regard to Rosyth and Scapa Flow. I served for quite a long time in the Navy in those parts just after the first world war, and during the last war. It is no secret to say that the Admiralty have thought a lot of Rosyth, and we greatly appreciate what was done by Rosyth in the interests of the Admiralty and of the State during those two world wars. In between the wars, a previous Government decided not to wait until the next war came before anything was done in that area. There is one point I am sure the hon. and gallant Member for Central Glasgow did not mean to infer, when he complained that the Admiralty were proposing to spend money on developing Portsmouth, Chatham and Devonport and that those bases were put out of action soon after the war started. I would like to say that those ports played 663 their part every bit as well as Rosyth, Invergordon and the other ports in Scotland.

§ Sir William Darling (Edinburgh, South)
Do I understand the Civil Lord to say that in his opinion Portsmouth and Rosyth have equal priority?

§ Mr. Edwards
I did not express an opinion. I said that those ports had not been put out of action but continued to play their part in the same way as Rosyth and the Clyde. My hon. Friend the Member for North Edinburgh (Mr. Willis) desires to have Rosyth Dockyard declared a permanent institution. I cannot quite understand what is meant by this permanency because even if we get the four dockyards, the possibility is that a smaller number of men will be employed.

§ Mr. Willis
Is it not possible to find civilian employment in Rosyth Dockyard for those who cannot be retained?

§ Mr. Edwards
During the past year we have found some civilian employment father than create unemployment, not only in Rosyth but in all other Royal Dockyards as well. But one cannot tell how far that policy can go. There may be some reductions as and when the Navy Estimates cannot provide sufficient money for the employment of present numbers, but I do hope no one is going to try to commit the Admiralty to making a statement that the numbers employed in Rosyth Dockyard, or any other dockyard must continue to be employed there for the next 10 years or so.
The only thing we can say, as far as Rosyth Dockyard is concerned, is that we appreciate its value, and it is our present intention to retain it on an active basis; but as we all know, the economic position dominates quite a number of things which one wants to do, and in view of the economic situation I certainly cannot give an undertaking that it will remain permanent. But it may satisfy the people of Scotland, and others interested, for me to be able to state that should the 664 economic and manpower state of the country cause consideration of a reduction of the number of Royal Dockyards in full commission, Rosyth will not be overlooked and will have consideration with all the other dockyards that we have. I am hoping that at least it may not be necessary for any of the dockyards to be affected in that way, but we have heard for quite a long time this afternoon of the difficulties with which the Admiralty are confronted both in manpower and ships because of the economic state of the country, and we cannot blind ourselves to the fact that there may be difficulties in front of us which may prevent us from making decisions. We certainly cannot bind a future Parliament. We do desire to retain Rosyth on an active basis.

§ Mr. Willis
What exactly is meant by "active basis"? I was stationed there when three or four reserve flotillas of destroyers were in Rosyth, but there was no one working there at all. Is that active?

§ Mr. Edwards
"Active basis" means as it is at present, which means that it will be used in the same way as the other dockyards in the country. So far as the graving dock on the Clyde is concerned, the Admiralty did send to Greenock to give us plans in connection with a new graving dock. We also investigated the possibility of other places, and all those were taken into consideration. It must be borne in mind that to have to spend millions of pounds on a graving dock at the present time is a matter which one has to take seriously into account in view of our financial difficulties. It has not been turned down. It is still under consideration, and while I cannot hold out any hopes of an early decision, it will continue to receive consideration in the same way as the other things we have in mind as far as the graving dock facilities in the country are concerned.