HC Deb 22 May 1947 vol 437 cc2640-52
Mr. Geoffrey Cooper (Middlesbrough, West)

I beg to move, in page 4, line 40, after "businesses," to insert: and including representatives of such trade associations or other recognised bodies as appear to the competent authority sufficiently to represent the interests of separate undertakings or of the various trades, and business concerned. The purpose of this Amendment is to recognise in some part of the Bill the organised opinion in industry. It is customary to take into consideration the collective representations made by the employers' organisations. I believe that point was thought to be so obvious that no special words were incorporated in the first drafting of this Bill in order to refer to it, but I believe that the time is coming when joint consultation is going to take place regularly, and, if one looks ahead in industry, one can see the early signs of this happening. That does not mean, of course, that the management will shelve the responsibility of the employer to do such things as carrying through the making of returns, as necessitated by this Bill. But it does indicate that the employee has a very material interest in the way industry is run; he is the person who actually has to collect the figures which have to be returned under the Bill. Therefore, if he is brought into the picture it is reasonable for the employees' organisations as well as the employers' organisations to have some say at the top level; for instance, in the way in which the forms themselves are designed. In the case of Income Tax forms, I believe they were improved by means of representations from the lower levels of the Civil Service.

This Amendment should appeal to the President of the Board of Trade, because he is reported to have referred, on one occasion, to the need for the employees in industry to have the opportunity of taking responsibility; otherwise, he said, they would not fit themselves for positions of responsibility at the top level of industry at a later date. That being a principle he himself has announced, I think he should agree to this Amendment without any difficulty. There is a later Amendment in the name of my right hon. and learned Friend which seeks, to some extent, to do what I seek to do by means of this Amendment, although that later Amendment does not go quite far enough. If co-operation is sought the statistics themselves will be produced more rapidly, with the possibility of them being produced more accurately by the inclusion in the Bill of some such provision as the one I now propose. The whole strength of this Bill, if I may so term it, depends on the co-operation which it is hoped will be fostered between the Government Departments which have to collect the figures and statistics and the employers and employees in industry. By accept- ing this Amendment the President of the Board of Trade would go a long way to showing industry that co-operation is sought.

The point was thought to be so obvious that it was not included when the Bill was first devised, and for that reason I believe that an official approach was made to the F.B.I. to see whether, in some measure, the ideas aimed at would be practicable. But surely, it must be considered that consultation with any one organisation, such as the F.B.I., is quite inadequate. If there had been wider consultation by the officials in the earlier stages, this Amendment would have been included in the Bill in the first instance. In industry it is necessary to provide some sort of protection, because it would be possible for bureaucracy to encroach unduly on industry and to make unreasonable demands. If there were demands of that sort, and if there were provision for collective representation, then a reasoned, well authenticated case could be stated, if necessary to the President of the Board of Trade himself, which would result in the necessary improvements taking place, in the procedure of collecting the statistics.

I do not think the objections to this Amendment are well founded. In Committee no reasonable objection was raised. Even the Parliamentary Secretary said that, in principle, he agreed with an Amendment which I at that time sought to incorporate in Clause i. If a matter is acceptable in principle, it only needs a little ingenuity to carry out that principle in practice. This Amendment will achieve the desired end without drawing the Clause too narrowly and thereby restricting the officials in carrying out their duties; yet, on the other hand, it would not be drawn too widely so that there would be no encouragement for those who will have to administer the Bill to consult with recognised bodies.

9.45 P.m.

Reference was made at an earlier stage to the need to collect information from those people visiting this country by air—arriving and departing by air. Unless officials are to be placed at every airport and emergency landing ground it may be that the employees of the airway companies or airway Corporations will have to obtain statistical information under this Bill. They may find some difficulties, unless adequate provision is made for them to state a case, if necessary, at a higher level to their organised association of employees. Those difficulties may persist in a way to cause considerable inconvenience to those coming to and leaving this country by air. I appeal, therefore, to the President of the Board of Trade to give such consideration as he can to the wording of this Amendment to see if he can adopt it as it is, or, at least, to adopt the principle; and if he wishes other words to be inserted for the purpose, perhaps, he could draft them before the Bill goes forward to another place.

Mr. W. Shepherd

I beg to second the Amendment.

We on this side of the House feel that it is desired by the Board of Trade to ensure collaboration between trade associations and that Department, and we look with some doubt upon the wording of Clause 8, which says: The Board of Trade shall arrange for the appointment of one or more committees, including persons engaged in, or otherwise conversant with the conditions of, various trades and businesses. That is a very vague statement, and it may permit the President of the Board of Trade to appoint individuals who have no standing whatsoever in the trade associations to which they belong. Surely, if one wants to create within the trades themselves confidence in the representative bodies appointed by the Minister, those bodies should be allowed to have the opportunity of submitting names from which the Minister can select various individuals. I think that the Amendment will enhance the confidence traders and industrialists generally will feel in this Bill.

Sir S. Cripps

I think there is some little, confusion as to what this Amendment really means. The hon. Member for Bucklow (Mr. W. Shepherd) has just said he thinks the existing words are vague and may enable me to do something of which he does not approve. But I would draw his attention to the fact that the existing words will remain. They are not altered. So I should still have the power to do what seem to him undesirable things.

Mr. Shepherd

But the words will be qualified.

Sir S. Cripps

Added to. I should be able to do still more undesirable things if this Amendment were inserted. But I think that there is confusion in the mind of the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. G. Cooper) who moved the Amendment. There are two very different functions here. One is to get an advisory committee which advises on the forms and instructions for the taking of a census and on the approach to the problem. If the main advisory committee were to have on it representatives of every industry in this country we should have a very large parliament indeed. There would have to be 600 or 700 people 'to give the sort of representation suggested by this Amendment. The people whom we have to get on to the Central Advisory Committee are the statesmen of industry, who will give the general advice. They are the type of people who are, for instance, members of the existing advisory body, people who represent the Federation of British Industries, the National Union of Manufacturers, the shipping companies, contractors, the cotton and chemical industries and a number of other things, and who are not representatives of separate industries and trade associations That would really be quite impossible

Therefore, we use these general terms in order to cover this general class of people who must, necessarily, have some acquaintance with various trades and businesses, in order that their services may be of value to the Board, and the much more detailed consultations take place in the ordinary way through the departmental channels. We must have a small body if we want to get efficient working, as we have experienced in the past, and we must get that help through the most suitable persons, not only people from particular industries acceptable to those industries, but people who are acceptable, broadly, to the industries of the whole country. If we were to take on these added people—because they are additional, including representatives from trade associations or other recognised bodies—it would spread the net so wide that it would make it quite impossible to set up a reasonable committee to perform the functions that are here intended.

Mr. Cooper

Would the President allow me? In the Clause, it is indicated that there could be more than one committee, and, surely, it would be proper to assume that there would be more than one section of industry concerned with those separate committees?

Sir S. Cripps

No, it would not be the intention to have a separate committee for each section of industry. That is not the idea at all. When we come to the question of the proper form of instructions for taking the census, we want a general view of the situation, and these are the committees which can give that general view rather than particular representatives of particular industries. I hope that, with that explanation, my hon. Friend will withdraw his Amendment.

Mr. C. Williams

I do not think the President of the Board of Trade has really been as fair as he usually is to the mover of this Amendment. Clearly, the hon. Gentleman desired most sincerely to bring into consultation with the main body concerned in this matter some representatives of various industries. To add words from the third line of his Amendment and widen their scope would, I quite realise, lead towards too big a committee, but I do not think that was the hon. Gentleman's intention. His intention really was to ensure that there were people on the main consultative body who would be directly in touch with industry. That is what we want, and it is what the President wants. Both sides of the House agree to this, and all we want now is that it should be laid down somewhere in the Bill that there should be these consultations, not with representatives of every single trade or separate undertaking, but with representative people, some of whom would be suitable to speak for some of the trades and industries. We are all aiming at the same thing, and I think it is rather a pity that the Amendment which, in principle, is completely sound, has been turned aside by the Government. We are still dependent purely on the good will of the Government.

Amendment negatived.

Mr. Manningham-Buller

I beg to move, in page 4, line 41, to leave out from "authority," to the end of the line.

I think it may be for the convenience of the House, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, if we could discuss this Amendment together with the next Amendment, in line 42, and the next three Opposition Amendments in line 44.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

I think that is agreeable to the House.

Mr. Manningham-Buller

This Amendment and the following Amendments deal with a separate point, which I will refer to first. Under the Clause an advisory committee can only advise a competent authority which is an authority other than the Board of Trade, to whom functions have been delegated under Clause 3. That means that the advisory committee will, in no circumstances, be able to advise a competent authority acting on its own initiative under Clause of the Bill. I would be interested to know why these advisory committees will be allowed to advise only competent authorities to whom powers have been delegated by the Board of Trade with regard to the taking of the census, and the benefit of their advice is not to be given to, or received by, any of the other 21 Government Departments seeking information under Clause 1? The effect of these two Amendments which, I hope, the Minister will be able to accept, will not be to limit the functions of the advisory committees at all, but will enable them, should their advice be required. to give that advice to any competent authority under Clause 1. I think it is desirable that that power should exist. There is really not much limit to what a competent authority under Clause 1 can seek in the way of information. It will be just as important that the forms which shopkeepers and small and big firms are required to fill in, under Clause r, should be as correctly designed, and as simple, as the forms required to be filled in for the census under Clause 3.

10.0 p.m.

With regard to the other three Amendments to which I referred, the first is consequential, and the last two are expanding the objects on which the advisory committees can express opinions. I hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will appreciate that the addition of these words does assist the purposes of this Bill by enabling the advisory committees to give proper advice on all matters of this kind affecting the taking of statistics, and the presentation of the summary of statistics, when they are obtained, which is very important. I hope that, by putting it in that way, and as shortly as that, I have made the points clear, and that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to accept the Amendments.

Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre

I beg to second the Amendment.

I would only like to emphasise one part of the arguments which my hon. and learned Friend has put. That is, with regard to the purposes for which these -advisory committees are to be established. I do think that, to a very great extent, the practical benefits of what the country is going to gain, and of what industry in particular is going to gain by this Bill, must depend on the constitution and effect of these advisory committees. During the committee stage, I think it was the Parliamentary Secretary who said that he had no objection to these committees summarising and presenting the statistics obtained through a census. My hon. Friends and myself have put these Amendments down for the purpose of carrying out what the Parliamentary Secretary said he had no objection to, and which we consider to be of very great value. If we do in this way extend the purposes and the tasks of these advisory committees, I think we are going to do something definite towards fulfilling what the President of the Board of Trade said two or three times in his Second Reading speech, namely, that it was the task of the Government to ensure that industry and the community as a whole went forward together and were joined in mutual confidence. The tie which is going to effect that mutual confidence will be these advisory committees. If they are bodies which are responsible not only for the preparation of reports and issuing the necessary instructions, but for the summarising and presentation of statistics, then indeed I do think a bond has been forged which can be of great value. 'Therefore, I hope that the Government will find themselves able to accept these Amendments.

Sir S. Cripps

As the hon. Member said, we undertook, during the Committee stage, to look at this matter again to see whether we could not introduce some Amendment which would broadly accomplish what I think were the desires of both sides of the House. As a result of that, we have put forward the proposal on page 4, line 44, to insert, at the end of this Subsection, the words: and of advising the Board or any other competent authority, with regard to such other matters under this Act as may be referred to those committees. It will be observed that, by inserting the words, "or any other competent authority" we have got away from the limitation of "competent authorities" to which the functions have been delegated. In other words, they can advise with regard to such other matters under the Bill. They are now, therefore, no longer limited to Clause 3.

Mr. Manningham-Buller

Surely it is only under Clause 3, if my recollection is right, that power is given to refer matters to the advisory committees. There is no power under Clause 1.

Sir S. Cripps

Power is being given by these words which I am proposing should be put into the Bill. They are given the powers by these words which are added: advising the Board or any other competent authority with regard to such other matters under this Act as may be referred to those committees. Those are perfectly general words which enable the committees set up to consider any matter under the Act referred to them by anybody, such as the Board of Trade or any other competent authority. We have more than covered the points which were raised in presenting this group of Amendments. We have already observed that we have not made it compulsory to refer these matters, but we have made it permissive to refer any matters upon which the authorities consider that the committees can help them and it will be the intention, as it was always the intention in the past, to utilise these committees to the utmost in order to get close cooperation betwen the administration and industry in the working out of all these matters. They can have referred to them questions which may arise on the presentation of results or any matters of that kind where they Will be very helpful. I hope, therefore', that the House will add the words which are in my name and which will ensure that the whole of the proposition put forward by Members of the Opposition will be met.

Mr. Cooper

Would the President of the Board of Trade give consideration. to the composition of the Board? He has gone so far to satisfy the point raised in the Committee stage, and I would ask him to think again on the way in which the Committees are actually brought together.

Sir S. Cripps

We are constantly thinking how we can form the best committees and we shall continue doing so.

Mr. Cooper

Could it not be specified in the Bill?

Mr. Manningham-Buller

I appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman has tried to meet the points that have been raised, but I am not quite sure that the preventing of what we had in mind is as clear as it might be. Would the right hon. Gentleman consider inserting the words in our Amendments to page 4, line 44? I suggest for that reason it is desirable that it should be appreciated that one of the functions of these committees may be to advise on the summarising and the presentation of the statistics obtained, and, if these words are inserted as a sort of signpost it may well be we will get certain Government Departments consulting the advisory committee which otherwise they would not do.

Sir S. Cripps

The hon. and learned Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller) is aware, I am sure, of the great danger of the ejusdem generis rule in these matters. If one thing is mentioned the courts arc liable to interpret it as limited to that thing or things of a similar nature, and thus it is better from our point of view to leave the words in a general form so as to cover anything we have suggested, rather than adding to these general words some specific thing which may be hereafter determined and argued by the courts. The whole of that phrase was, in fact, limited to that specific thing or to something of a similar nature. I think that this will be the sounder form to cover the whole generality of the things we want.

Mr. W. Shepherd

I should like to get an assurance from the President of the Board of Trade that these committees will, in fact, be asked to assist in the forms and in the summarising and presentation of the statistics. As far as industry is concerned, the summarising and presentation will be of enormous value, but it may well be the form of presentation or summary which the Board of Trade or another authority may determine is not the form in which the trade would like to see these figures presented. It therefore seems important that these Committees should have the opportunity of saying how these figures are to be presented

I want to raise a further point about a rather disturbing remark made by the President of the Board of Trade a short time ago when he indicated that this was to be a general committee for all industries. I do not think that that would be by any means satisfactory because in the drawing up of these forms, in indicating the type of statistics and in summarising, one needs people from each industry to which the forms are directed Surely a general committee drawn from a few individuals who are not representatives of any particular industries will not fulfil the purpose which is intended by those who have moved these Amendments. What we want is a committee which is representative of each individual industry and which can advise the Board of Trade or any other competent authority as to the type of form to be sent out, the type of summary to prepare and any other details which affect each individual trade. I hope that the President of the Board of Trade will be able to assure the House that he is not intending to administer this very difficult Bill by means of a committee which is suitable only for fairly general practice, but that he will see that a committee is established which knows the needs of individual industries and is capable of advising them.

Mr. C. Williams

I fully appreciate my hon. Friend's contention that we want to ensure in some way that there shall be a method whereby particular trades may have some knowledge of and give assistance with regard to what is going on. These orders may be very wide and as the right hon. and learned Gentleman said, his own Amendment makes a provision in general terms. They are very general terms with a very wide meaning indeed. In fact, they are so wide that I think they are giving the Government enormous powers. Whether those powers will be used, as we all hope, for the purposes of the other Amendments we are discussing at the present moment I cannot say, but from the point of view of someone who would wish to see these committees functioning as well as they possibly can, I am not sure that it is advisable to extend the powers so widely. I should have liked to see the position circumscribed in the manner suggested by my hon. Friend. It seems as if we were giving the Government completely wide and indefinite powers, which I know they love, but which are generally very unsatisfactory for those upon whom they exercise them.

10.15 p.m.

Mr. R. S. Hudson

I am not sure that there is a great deal between us. I, would remind the President of the Board of Trade that when this was discussed in Committee, the Parliamentary Secretary said: We want to make the best use of the advisory committees. It is the wording of the next Amendment Which I find objectionable, the particular word being "interpreting." We are seeking power to obtain statistics which will subsequently be presented. It will not be part of our object to interpret those statistics, although we may consider breaking them down to some extent." It the purpose of that Amendment is to secure the advice of advisory committees of how these statistics shall be summarised and presented, That is the point— then I have nothing at all to say against it and I am quite prepared to consider a form of words between now and the Report stage and to put down an Amendment which will give satisfaction to hon. Members who are responsible for this Amendment."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee C, 25th March, 1947; col. 98.] The only thing I am in doubt about is whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman's Amendment goes quite as far as the Parliamentary Secretary. As the House can see, in our Amendment, in page 4, line 44, we have adopted the words used by the Parliamentary Secretary, seeking to add: and the summarising and presentation of the statistics so obtained. If we can be certain that the advisory committees, as a matter of practice, will be consulted not merely as regards the form of the statistics, which we all agree is important, but will also have, if not a statutory right, an administrative right to be consulted about their presentations, then, if we can have that assurance, it will go most of the way to meet the point we have very much in mind.

Sir S. Cripps

We have made this as broad as possible to cover consultations on every possible point. We do not limit it to the mere point mentioned during the Committee stage. I am sure it is wiser to leave it in that very broad form, to enable the administration to have cooperation on all matters with these committees, and that is the intention.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment made; In page 4, line 44, at end, insert: and of advising the Board or any other competent authority with regard to such other matters under this Act as may be referred to those committees."—[Sir S. Cripps.]