§ The Solicitor-GeneralI beg to move, in page 19, line 47, to leave out from "property," to "in," in line 1, page 20, and to insert:
held or used by the local authority wholly or mainly.This is the first of a series of Amendments designed to achieve the same purpose. Doubts had arisen under Clause 14, as to precisely what it was that would be transferred upon the vesting of the assets of a local authority. An example quoted as an illustration of the doubts which had arisen was the case of a town hall which might be vested simply because there was an electricity sub-station in the basement. The relevant words of the Clause are at the moment—rights, liabilities and obligations held, used or incurred by the local authority in their capacity as authorised undertakers and accordingly references in that section.It was said that in the case I have instanced it might be argued that the town hall could be said to be held in their capacity as authorised undertakers. That is not intended at all. What the Amendments seek to do—and this is the keynote which runs through all of them—is to substitute for the words I have quoted:property held or used by any local authority partly in their capacity as authorised undertakers and partly in other capacities.They provide machinery whereby these two types of property can be divided. The test is whether the property is held or used by the local authority wholly or mainly in their capacity as authorised undertakers, and that enables a distinction to be drawn 545 in a case such as I have instanced. If hon. Members will look at the Amendments on page 4021 of the Order Paper, they will see that they are all directed towards substituting the test of "wholly or mainly" for the test of "held in their capacity as undertakers." They provide machinery for drawing a line between property held by a local authority as an undertaker, and property held in some other capacity.
§ Mr. R. S. HudsonThe explanation given by the Solicitor-General has convinced hon. Members on all sides of the commonsense of these Amendments I would suggest to him that composite companies are in an analogous position to that of local authorities in respect of a great deal of this sort of property. We should be grateful if the hon. and learned Gentleman would give consideration to the question of whether a similar provision could not be applied to the analogous case of composite companies.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Further Amendments made: In page 20, line 2, after "undertakers," insert:
and rights, liabilities and obligations acquired or incurred by the local authority in the said capacity.
§
In line 8, leave out "rights, liabilities, obligations," and insert:
held or used by the local authority wholly or mainly in their capacity as authorised undertakers and rights, liabilities and obligations acquired or incurred by the local authority in the said capacity or, as the case may be, to.
§ In line 13, at end, insert:
- "(a) for excluding from or including in the property which vests in an Electricity Board by virtue of this Act, such property held or used by any such local authority partly in their capacity as authorised undertakers and partly in other capacities, on such terms (which may include the payment of money), as may be agreed between the Electricity Board concerned and the local authority or, in default of agreement, determined in accordance with the regulations;
- (b) for requiring any Electricity Board, as respects property which vests in them by virtue of this Act, being property held or used by any such local authority partly in their capacity aforesaid and partly in other capacities, to grant to the local authority such interests in the property or rights over or attaching to the property or in respect of the user thereof, on such terms (which may include the payment of money), as may be agreed between the Electricity Board and the local authority or, in default of agreement, determined in accordance with the regulations, or for requiring the similar grant of interests
546 or rights by the local authority to the Electricity Board in a case where such property does not vest in the Board."
§
In line 37, at end, insert:
For the purposes of this Subsection, any property which is held or used by a local authority temporarily in their capacity as authorised undertakers and normally in other capacities, or normally in the said capacity and temporarily in other capacities, shall be deemed to be property held or used by a local authority partly in the said capacity and partly in other capacities."—[The Solicitor-General.]
§ The Solicitor-GeneralI beg to move, in page 20, line 38, to leave out Subsection (3).
§ This is a drafting Amendment.
§ Mr. R. S. HudsonThis seems to be a large piece of drafting, extending over 12 lines. Perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman could explain it.
§ The Solicitor-GeneralIt is drafting in the sense that Subsection (3) has been lifted bodily out of Clause 14, and will be transferred, if these Amendments are accepted, to Clause 19.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Further Amendment made: In page 21, line 8, leave out from "property," to third "or," in line 9, and insert:
is or was held or used by any such local authority wholly or mainly in their capacity as authorised undertakers or whether any rights, liabilities or obligations were acquired or incurred by any such local authority in the said capacity or whether any agreements or documents relate."—[The Solicitor-General.]
§ The Solicitor-GeneralI beg to move, in page 21, line 11, to leave out from "undertakers," to "shall," in line 14.
This is a drafting Amendment of the same character as the one we passed a few moments ago. These words go from Clause 14 to Clause 19.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ The Solicitor-GeneralI beg to move, in page 21, line 15, after "Minister," to insert "of Health."
This Amendment is to meet a point raised in Standing Committee by the hon. and gallant Member for New Forest and Christchurch (Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre).
§ The Solicitor-GeneralI am very sorry. I thought it was the hon. and gallant Member who raised the point. However, 547 it was said by a Member of the Opposition that the Minister should not be the person to determine questions arising on the vesting of local authority undertakings, and my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary suggested that it would be appropriate for the Minister of Health to be substituted for the Minister of Fuel and Power.
§ 9.15 p.m.
§ Colonel Crosthwaite-EyreI think that on consideration the learned Solicitor-General's remark should be withdrawn.
§ The Solicitor-GeneralI hope that the hon. and gallant Gentleman does not think that anything I have said was meant to be offensive to him. The reverse is very much the Case. I thought that he had made the suggestion, and I found that he had not, but as I thought that it was a good suggestion I complimented him on being the reputed author of it.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Further Amendment made: In page 21, line 20, at end, insert:
(5) Where at any time before the expiration of three months beginning with the vesting date a local authority has served on the Minister of Health and on the Electricity Board concerned, or an Electricity Board has served on the said Minister and on the local authority concerned, a notice in the prescribed form stating that a question has arisen under this Section or under any regulations made thereunder as to—
§ The Solicitor-GeneralI beg to move, in page 21, line 26, after "authority," to insert:
or be transferred to that Board any property forming part of a sinking fund established for the redemption of any such loan.This rectifies an error in the Clause as drafted, and provides that sinking funds established for the redemption of a loan should not be transferred on vesting, the position being that in the case of authorities with services on loan it is appropriate that the sinking fund should not be transferred. That was not provided for in the Clause as it stands, and this Amendment remedies that omission.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
§ Mr. R. S. HudsonThe Minister, at an earlier stage this afternoon, saw fit to admonish us that "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." If he will lake the trouble to look back and read this Clause over again, perhaps he will realise that a little knowledge is not only a dangerous thing but causes a great deal of trouble to this Committee by reason of his having had to recommit all this.
§ Lieut.-Colonel ElliotI would ask the Minister to realise how extremely reasonable we have been in dealing with this Clause. [Interruption.] I hope that the hon. Member realises that also. The whole of Clause 13, which raises great issues on vesting, we have allowed to go, although we had a perfect right to discuss it in Committee and could have discussed it indefinitely here. On Clause 14 we have not attempted in any way to delay the passage of the Bill. I trust that both the Minister and the Government will realise, when we come to the later stages, that we are allowing to pass, without any attempt at obstructing, Clauses which could perfectly well have been discussed 549 at considerable length, because we are desirous of having discussions on later points of importance which arise on the Minister's new Clauses.
§ Mr. ShinwellI am not complaining about the attitude of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman. I am delighted to witness such sweet reasonableness, and all I hope is that we keep it up.
§ Colonel Crosthwaite-EyreI would like to' offer my apologies to the learned Solicitor-General for the misunderstanding which arose earlier.
§ Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.