HC Deb 25 June 1947 vol 439 cc544-9
The Solicitor-General

I beg to move, in page 19, line 47, to leave out from "property," to "in," in line 1, page 20, and to insert: held or used by the local authority wholly or mainly. This is the first of a series of Amendments designed to achieve the same purpose. Doubts had arisen under Clause 14, as to precisely what it was that would be transferred upon the vesting of the assets of a local authority. An example quoted as an illustration of the doubts which had arisen was the case of a town hall which might be vested simply because there was an electricity sub-station in the basement. The relevant words of the Clause are at the moment— rights, liabilities and obligations held, used or incurred by the local authority in their capacity as authorised undertakers and accordingly references in that section. It was said that in the case I have instanced it might be argued that the town hall could be said to be held in their capacity as authorised undertakers. That is not intended at all. What the Amendments seek to do—and this is the keynote which runs through all of them—is to substitute for the words I have quoted: property held or used by any local authority partly in their capacity as authorised undertakers and partly in other capacities. They provide machinery whereby these two types of property can be divided. The test is whether the property is held or used by the local authority wholly or mainly in their capacity as authorised undertakers, and that enables a distinction to be drawn in a case such as I have instanced. If hon. Members will look at the Amendments on page 4021 of the Order Paper, they will see that they are all directed towards substituting the test of "wholly or mainly" for the test of "held in their capacity as undertakers." They provide machinery for drawing a line between property held by a local authority as an undertaker, and property held in some other capacity.

Mr. R. S. Hudson

The explanation given by the Solicitor-General has convinced hon. Members on all sides of the commonsense of these Amendments I would suggest to him that composite companies are in an analogous position to that of local authorities in respect of a great deal of this sort of property. We should be grateful if the hon. and learned Gentleman would give consideration to the question of whether a similar provision could not be applied to the analogous case of composite companies.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In page 20, line 2, after "undertakers," insert: and rights, liabilities and obligations acquired or incurred by the local authority in the said capacity.

In line 8, leave out "rights, liabilities, obligations," and insert: held or used by the local authority wholly or mainly in their capacity as authorised undertakers and rights, liabilities and obligations acquired or incurred by the local authority in the said capacity or, as the case may be, to.

In line 13, at end, insert:

  1. "(a) for excluding from or including in the property which vests in an Electricity Board by virtue of this Act, such property held or used by any such local authority partly in their capacity as authorised undertakers and partly in other capacities, on such terms (which may include the payment of money), as may be agreed between the Electricity Board concerned and the local authority or, in default of agreement, determined in accordance with the regulations;
  2. (b) for requiring any Electricity Board, as respects property which vests in them by virtue of this Act, being property held or used by any such local authority partly in their capacity aforesaid and partly in other capacities, to grant to the local authority such interests in the property or rights over or attaching to the property or in respect of the user thereof, on such terms (which may include the payment of money), as may be agreed between the Electricity Board and the local authority or, in default of agreement, determined in accordance with the regulations, or for requiring the similar grant of interests 546 or rights by the local authority to the Electricity Board in a case where such property does not vest in the Board."

In line 37, at end, insert: For the purposes of this Subsection, any property which is held or used by a local authority temporarily in their capacity as authorised undertakers and normally in other capacities, or normally in the said capacity and temporarily in other capacities, shall be deemed to be property held or used by a local authority partly in the said capacity and partly in other capacities."—[The Solicitor-General.]

The Solicitor-General

I beg to move, in page 20, line 38, to leave out Subsection (3).

This is a drafting Amendment.

Mr. R. S. Hudson

This seems to be a large piece of drafting, extending over 12 lines. Perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman could explain it.

The Solicitor-General

It is drafting in the sense that Subsection (3) has been lifted bodily out of Clause 14, and will be transferred, if these Amendments are accepted, to Clause 19.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 21, line 8, leave out from "property," to third "or," in line 9, and insert: is or was held or used by any such local authority wholly or mainly in their capacity as authorised undertakers or whether any rights, liabilities or obligations were acquired or incurred by any such local authority in the said capacity or whether any agreements or documents relate."—[The Solicitor-General.]

The Solicitor-General

I beg to move, in page 21, line 11, to leave out from "undertakers," to "shall," in line 14.

This is a drafting Amendment of the same character as the one we passed a few moments ago. These words go from Clause 14 to Clause 19.

Amendment agreed to.

The Solicitor-General

I beg to move, in page 21, line 15, after "Minister," to insert "of Health."

This Amendment is to meet a point raised in Standing Committee by the hon. and gallant Member for New Forest and Christchurch (Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre).

Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre

No.

The Solicitor-General

I am very sorry. I thought it was the hon. and gallant Member who raised the point. However, it was said by a Member of the Opposition that the Minister should not be the person to determine questions arising on the vesting of local authority undertakings, and my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary suggested that it would be appropriate for the Minister of Health to be substituted for the Minister of Fuel and Power.

9.15 p.m.

Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre

I think that on consideration the learned Solicitor-General's remark should be withdrawn.

The Solicitor-General

I hope that the hon. and gallant Gentleman does not think that anything I have said was meant to be offensive to him. The reverse is very much the Case. I thought that he had made the suggestion, and I found that he had not, but as I thought that it was a good suggestion I complimented him on being the reputed author of it.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 21, line 20, at end, insert: (5) Where at any time before the expiration of three months beginning with the vesting date a local authority has served on the Minister of Health and on the Electricity Board concerned, or an Electricity Board has served on the said Minister and on the local authority concerned, a notice in the prescribed form stating that a question has arisen under this Section or under any regulations made thereunder as to—

  1. (a) whether any property is or was held or used by the local authority wholly or mainly in their capacity as authorised undertakers and accordingly vests in the Electricity Board by virtue of this Act;
  2. (b) whether any property of the local authority ought to be excluded from or in eluded in the property which so vests;
  3. (c) whether interests in any property of the local authority, or rights over or attaching to such property or in respect of the user thereof, ought to be granted by the local authority to the Electricity Board or by the Board to the authority; or
  4. (d) whether any lease ought to be severed; and the question has not been settled by agreement or determined before the vesting date, the property concerned shall not, pending such agreement or determination, vest in the Electricity Board by virtue of this Act and, if the notice is given after the vesting date, shall be deemed not to have so vested, but the property shall, so far as it is so to vest having regard to the agreement or determination, vest on such date as may be agreed or determined, and pending the settlement or determination of the said question and the vesting of property and the granting of interests or rights in accord- 548 ance therewith, the Electricity Board shall be entitled and shall be deemed to have been entitled as from the vesting date to use the property for the like purposes and to the like extent as it was used, immediately before that date, by the local authority in their capacity as authorised undertakers, on such terms (which may include the payment of money) as may be agreed between the Electricity Board and the local authority or, in default of agreement, determined by the Minister of Health."— [The Solicitor-General.]

The Solicitor-General

I beg to move, in page 21, line 26, after "authority," to insert: or be transferred to that Board any property forming part of a sinking fund established for the redemption of any such loan. This rectifies an error in the Clause as drafted, and provides that sinking funds established for the redemption of a loan should not be transferred on vesting, the position being that in the case of authorities with services on loan it is appropriate that the sinking fund should not be transferred. That was not provided for in the Clause as it stands, and this Amendment remedies that omission.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Mr. R. S. Hudson

The Minister, at an earlier stage this afternoon, saw fit to admonish us that "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." If he will lake the trouble to look back and read this Clause over again, perhaps he will realise that a little knowledge is not only a dangerous thing but causes a great deal of trouble to this Committee by reason of his having had to recommit all this.

Lieut.-Colonel Elliot

I would ask the Minister to realise how extremely reasonable we have been in dealing with this Clause. [Interruption.] I hope that the hon. Member realises that also. The whole of Clause 13, which raises great issues on vesting, we have allowed to go, although we had a perfect right to discuss it in Committee and could have discussed it indefinitely here. On Clause 14 we have not attempted in any way to delay the passage of the Bill. I trust that both the Minister and the Government will realise, when we come to the later stages, that we are allowing to pass, without any attempt at obstructing, Clauses which could perfectly well have been discussed at considerable length, because we are desirous of having discussions on later points of importance which arise on the Minister's new Clauses.

Mr. Shinwell

I am not complaining about the attitude of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman. I am delighted to witness such sweet reasonableness, and all I hope is that we keep it up.

Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre

I would like to' offer my apologies to the learned Solicitor-General for the misunderstanding which arose earlier.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.