CLAUSE 8.—(Annual reports of Central Authority and Area Boards.) (Hansard, 24 June 1947)

§ Mr. Shinwell
I beg to move, in page 13, line 18, to leave out "national interest," and to insert, "interests of national security."
It would appear that this represents no substantial difference of opinion among us. There was some controversy during the Committee stage about the meaning of the words, and I promised to provide words more consistent with the rest of the Clause, and have accordingly done so.

§ Mr. R. S. Hudson
We were obliged to the Minister for what we thought was a major concession in response to representations we made in Committee, until we heard the last few words of what the Parliamentary Secretary had to say on the question of consultative councils. I am bound to say that I was filled with a certain amount of apprehension when the Parliamentary Secretary suggested that it might be contrary to national security if it were disclosed to the public that the Central Authority had proposals for improving the distribution of electricity in some particular area. It seems to be going pretty far to suggest that, if the Central Authority propose to improve the distribution, or start a new system of distribution in some particular area, it should be regarded as contrary to national security to disclose it to the public. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply takes exception to what I have said. If there is to be substantial improvement in the distribution of electricity in a scattered area, why on earth should that be regarded as a matter 284 which raises any question of national security?

§ Mr. Shinwell
I cannot follow the right hon. Gentleman at all. The position is quite clear. This relates to directions issued by the Minister to the Central Authority, and the Minister is empowered to report any directions he has issued to the Central Authority. We are safeguarding the national interest by ensuring, in stating these directions, that we shall have due regard to any matter which seems to affect the national interest.

§ Mr. Hudson
"National security."

§ Mr. Shinwell
The right hon. Gentleman prefers "national security." I have responded to his request, although, frankly, I do not see much difference. Clearly, there may be some strategic issue which it is not desirable to make public. For example, there might be some reason why the Minister had directed the Central Authority not to site a station in a particular area. It might, in the interests of national security, be desirable to withhold that information. I cannot see how that would interfere with the public, or that it is of any value to the public to have information of that kind. Having regard to the discussion which took place in Committee, and the fact that the right hon. Gentleman was concerned only about this change in language, I cannot see why he is now raising an objection.

§ Mr. Hudson
I do not think the Minister was present when the Parliamentary Secretary made his statement. I quite admit that there may be grounds why it might be desirable, on grounds of national security, not to disclose that the Minister had given directions on the siting of a generating station at a particular point. I cannot understand the words used by the Parliamentary Secretary. He suggested that the question of an improvement in distribution, or the inauguration of a new system of distribution in a particular area, should be regarded as a matter of national security. I am not questioning the general principle, but asking why on earth the Parliamentary Secretary should have made that suggestion.

§ Mr. Hopkin Morris (Carmarthen)
I agree that the Minister has tried to meet the criticisms which were made in Committee, but the words" national 285 security" do not appear to get us out of the difficulty. The person who determines the question of national security is the Minister of Fuel and Power, and I cannot understand what he has to do with it. I see no reason why it should be there at all. These words are nearly as bad as the original words.

§ Mr. Shinwell
I must take exception to what the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Hopkin Morris) has said. This question of what is the national interest is not determined by the Minister of Fuel and Power, but by the Government.

§ Lieut.-Colonel Elliot
We should like the Minister to answer the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson). The Parliamentary Secretary indicated a certain line of conduct which does not really fall within the limits of national security. In Committee, we were trying to narrow down the words "in the national interest" in relation to the suppression of information. We thought that these words met our point, because they suppress information which it is contrary to national security to disclose. The Parliamentary Secretary seemed to take the matter beyond the ordinary definition of security, by suggesting an unnecessary suppression of information. The only people who know what is being done are the General Staffs. The German General Staff were very well informed before the war, and they soon had it all mapped out whether an electricity supply was in one area or in another. The General Staffs know exactly what is going on, and they would hold meetings to decide exactly what strategic factors were foreshadowed. We should like the Parliamentary Secretary to say that, if he did not regard these matters as security measures in the wider sense, he intended to interpret them in the narrower sense. I think then that we on this side could be satisfied.

§ Mr. Shinwell
I beg to move, in page 13, line 23, at the end, to insert: (4) A Consultative Council may, as respects any financial year of the Area Board for their area or, if their area is the North of Scotland District, of the North of Scotland Board, make to the Board a report on the exercise and performance by the Council of 286 their functions during that year, and any such report shall be made to the Board as soon as possible after the end of the said financial year, and the Board shall include that report in the report made by them under this Section or, as the case may be, under Section twenty-three of the Act of 1943. This Amendment relates to the question of consultative councils making annual reports to either the area board, the Central Authority or the Minister, as the case may be. In Committee, the Opposition moved an Amendment to require the consultative council to present reports direct to the Minister. I stated that if a report was to be presented before its publication it would be better for it to be embodied in the area board's report, in the first instance, before going to the Minister. I think that this is the appropriate way of dealing with this matter.

§ Mr. R. S. Hudson
This goes a considerable way towards meeting the request that we made on the Committee stage. I would have regarded it as more or less satisfactory, but for the argument that developed on Clause 7. The Clause, as it stands, gives power to the Minister to issue directions for the report to be submitted and then published. We should like to know whether we can obtain the assurance from the Minister that he will take steps to see that a consultative council's report is of such a nature or in such a form as to give a true picture not merely of what it has done but of what it has failed to do.
We were told, in effect, during the discussions on the consultative councils that, if the desires of the Parliamentary Secretary are to be met, little or no publicity is to be given to their proceedings, particularly in any case where they have failed to give satisfaction. If effect is given to that view, one of the chief objects of the Opposition in urging the Minister to put forward this Amendment will be defeated. The object of these reports is that the public shall know what has happened to representations made by the consumers. I want once more to emphasise that the statutory protection of the consumer is being abolished. Judging from what the Parliamentary Secretary said on Clause 7, it is clear that what he intends is that the consultative councils should pursue their work in a condition of darkness.

§ Mr. Shinwell
I beg to move, in page 13, line 27, at the end, to insert: and shall at the same time lay before each House of Parliament a report with respect to the exercise of his functions during that year under this Act and the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1936, except as regards matters which in his opinion it is against the interests of national security to disclose. Under Section 30 of the Electric Lighting Act, 1882, the Minister was required to make an annual report to Parliament, but as these were sometimes very voluminous, it was thought desirable to make it possible to summarise the general activities and present them in a more abridged form. Provision is made for the presentation of a report in respect of the exercise of a Minister's functions in relation to these Acts.