HC Deb 04 June 1947 vol 438 cc220-8

(1) On any review under Subsection (2) of Section twelve of this Act of the management of land or farming of an agricultural unit of which the owner is not also the occupier,—

  1. (a) if the review is of management, the representations under paragraph (b) of that Subsection of the occupier may include a request that the Minister shall exercise his powers under Subsection (1) of Section sixteen of this Act in relation to the land;
  2. (b) if the review is of farming, the representations under the said paragraph (b) of any owner of land comprised in the agricultural unit may include a request that the 221 Minister shall exercise his powers under Subsection (1) of Section seventeen of this Act in relation to the said land.

(2) Where such a request is made the Minister shall not comply therewith unless he is satisfied that the management or farming, as the case may be, has not shown satisfactory improvement while the supervision order has been in force, but save as aforesaid may, subject to the provisions of this Section, either comply with or refuse the request.

(3) If the Minister proposes to refuse such a request he shall give notice in writing of his proposal to the owner and to the occupier.

(4) If before the expiration of the prescribed period from the making of such a request no notice has been given either under the last foregoing Subsection of a proposal to refuse the request or under Section sixteen or seventeen of this Act of a proposal complying with the request, the Minister shall be deemed to have given notice of his proposal to refuse the request.

(5) Where notice of a proposal to refuse such a request is given or deemed to have been given the person by whom the request is made may require that the proposal shall be referred to the Agricultural Land Tribunal constituted under Part V of this Act, and the provisions in that behalf of the said Part V shall apply accordingly.

(6) Where in consequence of a reference to the Agricultural Land Tribunal under the last foregoing Subsection the Minister complies with such a request as aforesaid, the provisions of Subsections (4) and (5) of Section sixteen of this Act or Subsections (2) and (3) of Section seventeen thereof, as the case may be, shall not apply to any action of the Minister necessary to comply with the request.—[Mr. Marquand.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

The Paymaster-General (Mr. Marquand)

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

Yesterday, on the Industrial Organisation Bill, I did what I believe the baseball players call a piece of "pinch hitting" for my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, who was regrettably absent through indisposition. I should like to say how much I regret that my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture is also unable to be here this afternoon owing to a serious illness, and, if I may be allowed to continue my metaphor for a moment without any disrespect for the Committee, I hope that in this game my amateur status may give me a little indulgence.

The purpose of this new Clause is to deal with a point arising out of the discussion in Committee on the certificate of bad husbandry procedure contained in the Fifth Schedule. The Schedule provides that where a tenant farmer has been placed under supervision, the landlord should not be able to apply for a certificate of bad husbandry. The reason for this is, of course, that if an application for a certificate of bad husbandry were to be allowed in respect of a tenant under supervision, it would automatically have to be granted, as a farmer can be placed under supervision only if he is not farming in accordance with the rules of good husbandry. It would however be a mistake to grant a certificate of bad husbandry while a farmer was under supervision; the purpose of supervision, after all, is to give a man a helping hand so as to enable him to improve his standard of farming. However, while a tenant is still under supervision, it is perfectly open to the landlord to go to the committee and make representations to them to the effect that the tenant has not shown satisfactory improvement in his standard of farming, and therefore ought to be dispossessed. If the committee agree with that view and dispossess the tenant, he will quit the holding without compensation for disturbance in exactly the same way as he would have done if a certificate of bad husbandry had been applied for and granted. Moreover, the time will be the same in each case, since the notice to quit with a certificate of bad husbandry must run for at least 12 months, while a supervision order must equally run for a period of 12 months before a tenant can be dispossessed.

As the Bill is drafted however there is one material difference between the two procedures. Under the certificate of bad husbandry procedure, if a landlord's application for a certificate is refused he can appeal to the agricultural land tribunal. Under the supervision procedure, if the landlord's request that his tenant should be dispossessed is refused, he has no right of appeal to the tribunal. The purpose of this Clause, therefore, is to eliminate this difference between the two procedures and provide that where a tenant is under supervision and the landlord makes a request that he should be dispossessed on the ground that he has not shown satisfactory improvement, and this request is not accepted by the committee, the landlord should have a right of appeal to the agricultural land tribunal. The question which the tribunal will have to consider will be whether, during the period of supervision, the tenant has not shown satisfactory improvement and whether, in all the circumstances of the case, he ought to be dispossessed.

Clearly, the landlord cannot be allowed to ask for a tenant's dispossession except at periodical intervals, and the Clause, therefore, provides that the landlord may only make such a request on the occasion of each annual review of a supervision order. The result of this change in procedure will be that the landlord will have exactly the same right to get rid of a tenant under supervision without the payment of compensation for disturbance as he would,have had under the certificate of bad husbandry procedure in respect of a tenant not under supervision. The only difference will be a matter of the machinery which the landlord will use. Therefore, we feel that we have definitely met the criticism that the result of placing the tenant under supervision is to take the whole question of getting rid of him completely out of the landlord's hand. The landlord will have his remedy of requesting dispossession in exactly the same way as he would have had the remedy under the certificate of bad husbandry procedure if a tenant was not under supervision.

If the landlord is given the right to ask for the dispossession of a tenant under supervision, it is clearly necessary, and only logical, that a tenant whose landlord is under supervision ought to have the same right. The Clause, therefore, provides that where an owner of land is under supervision his tenant has the right to request the committee to dispossess the owner on the ground that he has not shown satisfactory improvement in his management during the period of supervision. If the committee do not accept the request, the tenant is given a right of appeal to the agricultural land tribunal in the same way as the landlord has been given a right of appeal. I hope that with this brief explanation the Committee will feel that the point raised in the previous discussion has been adequately met, and will agree to insert this new Clause in the Bill.

Sir Henry Morris-Jones (Denbigh)

The hon. Gentleman having, with great accuracy, read his brief, I wonder if he would now b good enough to explain to us the text of the new Clause in his own words?

Captain Crookshank

I wanted to mention one point which I made on the Fifth Schedule, of which this new Clause has largely taken the place and which the Minister said he would look at again. The Minister does not seem to have done so. I am concerned about Subsections (3) and (4) of this new Clause. I feel it is a mistake to put into legislation this form of procedure. Subsection (3) says: If the Minister proposes to refuse such a request he shall give notice in writing of his proposal to the owner and to the occupier. That is all right, but Subsection (4) says: If … no notice has been given … of a proposal to refuse the request … the Minister shall be deemed to have given notice of his proposal to refuse the request. I do not see why he should be deemed to have done it. He should either do it or not do it, and we ought not to give this slipshod sort of power to the Minister, so that if the time expires and nothing has been done, he shall be deemed to have taken action which he could have taken and ought to have taken if he had acted up to the earlier part of the Clause. The Minister said he did not like that kind of thing and would look at it again, but he has not made the necessary correction.

Mr. Marquand

I think that my right hon. Friend, in saying that he would look at this again, also said that he had every intention of doing what is suggested here, namely notifying the occupier in writing. He intends that his administrators who will be carrying out the provisions of this Bill for him shall do that, but at the same time lie has to safeguard himself against the possibility of some error.

Captain Crookshank

Yes, but not by being deemed to have done something which he has not done. If he has to safeguard his position in respect of a mistake made by an official of his Department or by himself, there ought to be a regular procedure under the law as to what happens when people do not carry out their jobs. Certainly they should not be deemed to have carried them out if they have not done so.

Mr. Hopkin Morris (Carmarthen)

Under Subsection (2) of this new Clause: Where such a request is made the Minister shall not comply therewith unless he is satisfied that the management or farming, as the case may be, has not shown satisfactory improvement while the supervision order has been in force, —so that a satisfactory improvement has to be made before the Minister entertains a request. It goes on: but save as aforesaid may, subject to the provisions of this section, either comply with or refuse the request. If there has been improvement during the period, such a request cannot then be entertained by the Minister. There is the situation where a notice is in force and no improvement has taken place. In those circumstances it can be entertained by the Minister, and under the Subsection if the Minister proposes to refuse such a request it shall be done in writing. It is an odd position if where it is established that there is no improvement at all during the tenure of the notice it is still permissible for the Minister to refuse the notice. Where there is no improvement and there is negligence during the period, why not enforce the order at once?

4.30 p.m.

Mr. T. Williams

I think the hon. and learned Member has got this all wrong. If a tenant farmer be under a supervision order and if he has made no progress or improvement, clearly the Minister would be justified in receiving representations from the landowner, but if the person under supervision is making some improvement and is responding to the advice, guidance and leadership, then clearly a certificate of bad husbandry ought not to be granted. It seems on the face of it that it is contradictory, but, in fact, it is not so.

Mr. Turner-Samuels (Gloucester)

I see one small difficulty at which I wish the Minister would look. Where there is a notice of a proposal to refuse such a request, it follows automatically that the proposal shall be referred to the agricultural land tribunal. Supposing there is no such proposal, what is to follow? Who is to know whether there is going to be a refusal or not and what is going to be the position of the agricultural tribunal?

Sir T. Dugdale

Is not this new Clause, in fact, an intermediary stage between Clause 12, which is supervision, and Clauses 16 and 17 which deal with dispossession? In other words, is it not going half way towards an appeal to the agricultural land tribunal so much desired by Members on this side of the Committee? The point I want to make is, if a man is put under supervision under Clause 12, then if either the landlord or the tenant feel that their opposite number is not making sufficient progress, he should be dispossessed. In other words, either can apply to the Minister, and if the Minister takes the same view and agrees, the landlord or the tenant can apply to the agricultural land tribunal to have the matter finally settled. That takes place before Clauses 16 and 17 operate.

Mr. T. Williams

I am rather sorry for this confusion, because I thought my hon. Friend the Paymaster-General was clarity personified in his explanation, despite the remarks of the hon. Member for Denbigh (Sir H. Morris-Jones). In Committee it was suggested by hon. Members opposite that a person under supervision has apparently not farmed up to a reasonable standard, otherwise he could not be under supervision. It was urged, therefore, that the landowner ought to be allowed to apply for a certificate of bad husbandry and get rid of his tenant without compensation. Our submission was, of course, that a person was under supervision because the county executive committee were trying to help him to improve his standard, and it would, therefore, be unreasonable to allow a certificate of bad husbandry to be granted at that time. However, as a result of consultations since the Committee stage, we have devised ways and means of doing what we regard as justice both to the landlord and the tenant. We have completely conceded the point made by hon. Members opposite who now seem to be engaged in the difficulty of explaining away the concession we have actually made.

Major Mott-Radclyffe (Windsor)

Can the right hon. Gentleman explain the implications of Subsection (4) of the new Clause? I understand Subsection (3) which lays down that if the Minister proposes to refuse a request a notice in writing will have to be given, but I am still not at all clear as to the object of this extraordinary phrase in Subsection (4) that in default of any decision either way: the Minister shall be deemed to have given notice of his proposal to refuse the request.

Mr. Derek Walker-Smith (Hertford)

Before the Minister answers that point, might I take it a little-further and ask him to include in his reply some reference to the first line of Subsection (4) of the proposed Clause, where it says: If before the expiration of the prescribed period from the making of such a request … I have not had the advantage of participating in these proceedings upstairs and I would be grateful if the Minister would say a word on the prescribed period as envisaged in this Subsection. The interpretation Clause refers to the prescribed period and says: 'Prescribed' has are meaning assigned to it by the last foregoing Sections. The last foregoing Section is Clause 106, and Subsection (2) says: In this Act the expression 'prescribed' means prescribed by regulations made by the Minister. Might I ask the Minister about the regulations which are to be made in regard to the fixing of the prescribed period? Will the prescribed period be the standard prescribed period in all cases, or will it be a variable prescribed period? Further, if there is to be a prescribed period in this way, then surely it adds force to the contention already made by my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) in regard to the unsatisfactory provision as to the notice being deemed to have been given. Surely the Minister will agree that if he is making the regulation to prescribe a period, the matter must be present within the minds of his Department, and it should not be necessary to incorporate this astonishing phraseology into an Act of Parliament to cover possible slips in a Government Department. I will put one further point, which is in regard to Sub section (3) of the new Clause as to the notice in writing of the Minister's proposal to refuse. Is that notice of refusal a formal thing, or will it be accompanied by a reasoned statement as to why he has come to this decision?

Mr. T. Williams

The notice, I understand, will be merely a notice that the Minister has either refused the request or otherwise. I do not see why there should be any lengthy and detailed explanation as to why the Minister has reached that decision. With regard to the other point, about the expiration of the prescribed period, it seems to me quite dear that the hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Walker- Smith) destroyed his own case because if a period is prescribed under Clause 106—it may be a month or two months or a week or two weeks—it will be prescribed, but the time period will vary according to the circumstances in differing cases. If, therefore, a prescribed period is known and the Minister by that time has not given his assent, the last two lines of Subsection (4) indicate that he shall be deemed to have given notice of his proposal to refuse the request. At the end of the prescribed period—say a month—if the Minister has not accepted or has, in fact, done nothing, it is made clear that he has refused, and therefore there cannot be any doubt about the matter.

Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.