HC Deb 14 July 1947 vol 440 cc39-46

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

3.42 p.m.

Mr. R. A. Butler (Saffron Walden)

There are one or two points on this Clause about which we should like to have a little further elucidation. It may be convenient if, with your permission Major Milner, I simply say that we have not put down any Amendments on this Bill, but we expect to he able to elucidate many of its contents during the short time provided for doing so in only one day's proceedings. Therefore, we shall adopt the procedure of rising on the Motion, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," for the purpose of asking the Government questions. May I add, in regard to the spirit of our approach to the Bill, that if we ask a great many questions I hope it will be understood that it is not in a factious spirit, but with a desire, many of us having been brought up on the constitutional law of India, to elucidate what precisely is the position under this Bill, and that nothing we say will mean that we wish to derogate in any way from our realisation that the Indians are seeking self-government and are to get it.

As to the points which arise on this Clause—my hon. Friends may have other ones—I wish to confine myself chiefly to asking why 15th August has been chosen as the appointed day. There has necessarily been a great deal of detail to be worked out in the preparation of this Bill, and there will be a great deal of detailed work to undertake before that date. To our untutored eyes it would appear that the matter is being very much rushed and that to get everything ready by this appointed day, being, as we are, at the middle of July already, will be a Herculean task for the authorities in India. It will appear, as we further discuss the details of this Measure, that there is a great amount of business to be done of a controversial character, in particular in relation to the partition of India into two pieces, and it would seem almost impossible to complete this by 15th August. I do not want to give only my own reasons why that date was chosen. I would rather that the Government gave their own reasons, but it will be satisfactory to us to know that that date was requested by both sides.

I would only make the further observation that we have generally supported this Bill on the understanding that this is to be a lasting settlement. If it is a lasting settlement, and is worked out by the Viceroy and those on the spot as a lasting settlement, I cannot quite see why there need have been this great sense of rush. I hope that in reply the Government will be able to reassure us in this opinion that this date has nothing to do with any particular instability in the settlement or the decision which they are pressing.

One could animadvert at length on the words "two independent Dominions" and the word "India" in the Clause. I have received explanations of those words and I am ready to accept them. I would only say that I presume that the word "Dominions" has been included as being on the same lines as the Statute of Westminster, and that any proposal to amend the Statute of Westminster would carry with it a proposal to amend such a term as this. I am not suggesting that any immediate amendment of that Statute is likely. I do not wish to say anything further about the word "India." Perhaps we might be given a little explanation as to what "India" means here, and what it means under the new connotation. I understand that it has been arranged with the parties concerned as an agreed matter. Therefore, I shall confine myself to these observations.

Mr. Godfrey Nicholson (Farnham)

I should like to associate myself with what my right hon. Friend said about the entirely helpful spirit of our intentions on this and other Clauses. I should like to say a few words about the words "independent Dominions" and I hope that the Prime Minister will be able to say that "Dominion," as used in this Clause, is a temporary appellation. I believe that the word "Dominions" is subject to several misconceptions, and I do not think it is suitable in this case. I should have liked to see the words: Two sovereign States within the British Commonwealth of Nations hereinafter to he known for the purpose of this Act as the new Dominions I still wonder whether it is not too late to use words like that in the Clause. I believe that would have a good effect in India. My right hon. Friend has said everything I wish to say on the other question.

Brigadier Low (Blackpool, North)

In regard to the use of the word "India," I entirely understand the situation as my right hon. Friend put it. I have heard it argued by friends of the Congress Party in England that the use of the word "India" in this Bill is a proof that His Majesty's Government take the view that Pakistan has seceded from the whole of India. I have always taken the view, which I believe is right, that there has been no secession but that this is the result of an agreement which has been approved by His Majesty's Government, and that the Government do not favour one State or the other in the partition of India. I would like confirmation of that.

Mr. Molson (The High Peak)

Like other hon. Members who have spoken on this side of the Committee, in anything I am about to say about the word "India" I shall not press the point because obviously the Government have obtained the agreement of the parties to this word, and one might do a great deal of harm if one pressed any criticisms one wishes to make. At the same time, I am surprised that the word "India" should have been used in this Bill. It is ordinarily a cause of confusion in the drafting of any Statute if a word is used in two entirely different senses. India has, in the past, included the whole of British India and Indian India. In this case one of the two Dominions into which the old British India is being broken up is to be referred to as "India." In point of fact, Pakistan and such Indian States as do not accede to the Dominion of Pakistan or the Dominion of Hindustan will remain part of the geographical expression "India," and I do not doubt that for certain international purposes, it will continue to be necessary for the whole of that geographical area to be treated as a single India. I am referring more to technical than to political matters. It seems to be most unfortunate and likely to cause confusion when one part of what has been India in the past is to be known as the Dominion of India in the future. There are political arguments which might he advanced, but I especially abstain from referring to them. I think that in the long run it is likely to cause confusion.

Mr. Wilson Harris (Cambridge University)

I would like to support in part what has been said by the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. Nicholson) in respect of the term "independent Dominions." I think that we need the word "Dominion" here, and that it was a stroke of genius on the part of Lord Mountbatten to apply the possibility of Dominion status to the two halves of India. I cannot help thinking, however, that the term "independent Dominions" involves a certain contradiction. Dominions as between themselves are interdependent, not independent. I would very much prefer the use of the words "autonomous Dominions." In the famous langage of 1926, the Dominions are not subject one to another in any internal or external affairs, but they are not entirely independent. They do not stand completely apart from one another. Indeed, they have the right to secede from the Commonwealth, in which case they would achieve complete independence. It seems to me the word "independent" ought to be used for that status. It would be more desirable to speak of "autonomous" in this case and to use the words "autonomous Dominions" rather than "independent Dominions."

The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee)

I would like to thank the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. R. A. Butler) for the spirit in which he has approached this matter in the Committee stage. I would assure him that it is the Government's intention and desire to give every possible information and not to attempt any scoring points. Let me say a word, first of all, with regard to timing. We adopted this timing on the advice of the Viceroy. The right hon. Gentleman will realise how difficult the situation is in which we have an interim Government in which two separate communities are trying to work in a unitary Government. I think there is a great deal to be said for getting them launched and started with their work. The longer we keep it hanging about in an indeterminate way, the greater the difficulties which arise. That has been done not from any ulterior motive but on the advice we have had from India.

With regard to the words "independent Dominions," I think we need the word "Dominion" here just for the reason the right hon. Gentleman gave, that we understand what Dominion status means under the Statute of Westminster. Whatever alteration of the Statute of Westminster there may be in the future, the Statute today does define this position. As the hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Wilson Harris) said, it means a complete autonomy. With regard to the word "independent," that again one may quarrel over, but I think that one has to consider both history and psychology in these matters. It is a fact that is not generally realised throughout the world that, although it is quite properly said that there is interdependence, there is complete independence in the Dominions from any control, whether from Whitehall or from Parliament. That is the important point that needs to be stressed. It is not, perhaps, quite the same as if this was being formed from some country which had never been in the position of being under this Parliament and Whitehall. I think that is the point that Indians really want to have emphasised; they quite accept the position and they know the advantages of being in the Dominions. The point is that people who have been long, so to speak, under the tutelage of Whitehall and under the control of this Parliament feel, "Now, at last, we are independent of that control."

Mr. Wilson Harris

I appreciate what the right hon. Gentleman has said on the importance of the word "independent" in this context, but is allegiance to the Crown, which is inherent in the position of any Dominion, really consistent with the use of this term?

The Prime Minister

I think so, because the King is King of Great Britain, King of Canada and of any Dominion. It does not alter the fact that they are independent of any control by any other member of the Commonwealth. I think that is the point. In reference to the question whether we should call the Dominions "India" and "Pakistan," that is largely a choice of names decided by the Indians themselves. As the hon. Member for The High Peak (Mr. Molson) pointed out, it is a fact that we get a constant difficulty over one name going for a geographical expression and also for a State. We are awfully apt to talk of "Americans" when we do not mean the people of North and South America. We often talk of "Americans" and do not mean the people of the whole of North America. In the same way, I have no doubt that we shall continue to talk of "Indians" although one part is particularly called India. The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden will remember that we had a good deal of talk on this when the 1935 Act was discussed. We always had to distinguish between British India and Indian India. I do not think that this will cause great difficulty in practice.

An hon. Gentleman opposite raised a point with regard to the status of these two Dominions. The names are not meant to make any difference between them. They are two successor States. They are separate and both of them will be Dominions in the full effect of the term.

Colonel Gomme-Duncan (Perth and Kinross, Perth)

I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has any information about the attitude of the inhabitants of Pakistan towards the other half of India, the Hindu side of India, having as one might say "snaffled" the name "India." Are they satisfied, or is it possible that it will lead to trouble?

The Prime Minister

I should hesitate to speak for all the inhabitants of any area, but this was accepted by their leaders.

Mr. Nicholson

I have no desire to delay the proceedings, but I feel that what we are doing at this minute may be of immense consequence to the future development of the British Commonwealth. The other day we changed the name of the office of the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs to the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations. It seems to me rather paradoxical that we should invite perpetuity for the name "Dominion" when we are launching two large new parts of the Empire which, whatever happens, will be on a slightly different footing from the other Dominions. Another point occurs to me, and I must step warily in what I say. I do not know whether every party in India interprets the word "Dominion" in the way in which we interpret it. I think that it needs a good deal of explanation. Perhaps that is the justification for the use of the word "independent" before the word "Dominions." Thirdly, I cannot help feeling that a revision of the Statute of Westminster must be overdue as soon as there is any retreating from or turning against the use of the word "Dominion." I should like to know from the Prime Minister that this aspect will have the attention of His Majesty's Government in the future. I know that: A rose, by any other name would smell as sweet. But there is a very great deal in the names of the British Commonwealth.

The Prime Minister

I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. As a matter of fact, there is a great deal in nomenclature. "Dominion" is the term used in the Statute of Westminster. It may well be that in the future we may consider some other different term. The word "Dominion" is not always frightfully popular with our own Dominions. It may be that in the course of time we will have that matter under consideration. Obviously, it is a matter which we should have to take up with the Dominions at some future conference. I quite appreciate the hon. Gentleman's point.

Brigadier Low

In dealing with the relationship of the Dominions one to another, we are always referring to the Statute of Westminster. Am I right in saying that the relationships are also governed by a series of decisions reached at Imperial Conferences? If I am right in saying that, to what extent do these decisions apply to the new Dominions? Will they have to accede to them, or do they automatically apply?

4.0 p.m.

The Prime Minister

It is difficult to answer that question straight off. We are dealing here with a particular status, not with agreements made by those enjoying that status. Whether the new Dominions accede to those agreements would be a matter for their consideration.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.