PENSIONS (INCREASE) BILL (Hansard, 23 January 1947)

HC Deb 23 January 1947 vol 432 cc387-484 387

§ Considered in Committee.

§ [Mr. HUBERT BEAUMONT in the Chair]

§ 4.12 p.m.

§ Mr. W. J. Brown (Rugby)
On a point of Order. Some of us would like your guidance on this matter, Mr. Deputy-Chairman, and perhaps the most convenient way to raise the point is to ask you whether you can tell us what Amendments you propose to call during the Debate. Some of us are not quite sure whether we shall be able to get in what we wish to get in, and a great deal will depend on the selection of Amendments.

The Deputy-Chairman
I propose to call the third Amendment on the Order Paper, standing in the name of the hon. Member for South Cardiff (Mr. Callaghan), with which we shall be able to discuss the sixth Amendment at the same time. The fourth and fifth Amendments will then be taken, 388 also the last one on page 1045, and the first on page 1046. The second Amendment on that page is not being called. The remaining Amendments are being called.

§ Mr. Ralph Morley (Southampton)
Is not the Amendment standing in my name and that of the hon. Member for South Cardiff (Mr. Callaghan) to be taken?

The Deputy-Chairman
The first two Amendments are not being called.

§ Mr. Brown
Is this because of the terms of the Money Resolution, or for some other consideration?

The Deputy-Chairman
It is not in Order to ask for the reasons which guide the Chair in the selection of Amendments.

§ Mr. Brown
In those circumstances, may I respectfully represent to you that this decision in fact makes it impossible for us to discuss the adequacy or inadequacy of this Bill? When the Financial Resolution was submitted to the House by the Financial Secretary, we were told that it would be drawn in terms wide enough for us to table Amendments on merit. If this decision be not reconsidered, the scope of our Debate this afternoon must be exceedingly restricted.

§ Mr. Burden (Sheffield, Park)
On a point of Order. Does not this put the Committee in very great difficulty? The information you have given, Mr. Deputy-Chairman, is of value to the Committee and has been given to help us, but it will put us into difficulties if the matter is pursued in the way in which it is being pursued.

The Deputy-Chairman
The information was given for the convenience of the Committee, but it is not for the Committee to ask the reasons why an Amendment has not been selected.

§ Mr. Brown
In those circumstances, I place on record my protest at the selection of Amendments in such a way as to prevent the Committee from discussing the merits of the Bill.

The Deputy-Chairman
The hon. Member is now quite out of Order.

§ Mr. Brown
I may be out of Order, but I am morally right.

The Deputy-Chairman
Mr. Morley.

389

§ 4.15 p.m.

§ Mr. Morley
I do not know whether I should be in Order or not in moving this Amendment—

The Deputy-Chairman
The first two Amendments on the Order Paper have not been selected. I am now calling upon the hon. Member to move the third Amendment on the Order Paper.

§ Mr. Brown
Further to that point of Order, may I respectfully submit to you, Mr. Beaumont, that there are really two issues involved in this Bill? One of them is the question of how far—

The Deputy-Chairman
The hon. Member is now out of Order. I have called upon the hon. Member for Southampton (Mr. Morley) to move, if he so wishes, the third Amendment on the Order Paper.

§ Mr. Brown
I again protest against this. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order."] It is not I who am out of Order; it is the Deputy-Chairman.

§ Earl Winterton (Horsham)
On a point of Order. May I recall your attention, Mr. Deputy-Chairman, to what the hon. Gentleman has just said? He said you were out of Order. Are hon. Members allowed to say things like that?

The Deputy-Chairman
Obviously it is decidedly out of Order to make such a remark with regard to the Chair.

§ Mr. Brown
How can one, then, with great respect, put to you the simple issue I want to put? May I be allowed to put that issue?

The Deputy-Chairman
The hon. Member is surely conversant with the Rules of the House. He has been a Member for a long time, and he should know that the only matters which can be discussed are those arising out of Amendments which have been selected.

§ Earl Winterton
On a point of Order. I desire to ask you whether the new procedure of the House is that, when a most gross charge is made against the Chair, all the Chair can say is that it is out of Order. Should not the hon. Gentleman withdraw?

The Deputy-Chairman
I was hoping that the hon. Gentleman would withdraw without an indication from the Chair. It is quite wrong to question the 390 conduct of the Chair. If an hon. Member disagrees, there are ways and means in which he can make his protest through the learned Clerks at the Table.

§ Mr. Brown
The last thing I want to do is to come into conflict with you, Mr. Beaumont, either in your official or your personal capacity. I withdraw the allegation I made. But may I be allowed to put this point?

The Deputy-Chairman
The hon. Member is now placing me in something of a difficulty. I do not think he is treating me, either as the occupant of the Chair or as an individual, quite fairly. I have called upon the hon. Member for Southampton (Mr. Morley) to move the third Amendment on the Order Paper.

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