SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION, ETC. (Hansard, 18 February 1947)

§ Mr. Peake
I think, even at this corn paratively late hour, the Committee ought not to vote money without having the slightest idea of what it is doing. There are two small items in this Supplementary Estimate about which we ought to have a little information. The first is the grant in aid—for which nothing was provided in the original Estimate—of £1,800 in aid of the Scott Polar Research Institute I think hon. Members ought to be told what that Institute is, why a grant is being made to it, and whether it is the North Pole or the South Pole which is here concerned. That grant in aid, we are told, will not be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor-General. Then there is the grant in aid, under Sub-head V, for the North Sea Fisheries Investigation of a sum of £1,040 for which no original estimate was made. The explanations in the de tails of this sum of over £1,000 for the North Sea Fisheries Investigation is that it is a contribution to the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will tell us what that Council is, where it sits, how often it meets, and which of the Seven Seas it explores

§ Viscount Hinchingbrooke
I would like to ask one question with regard to Subhead S. There is a revised estimate for £350,000 for the Arts Council of Great Britain. Is that the total sum, or is the budget to be larger than that? Furthermore, where does the extra money come 1116 from? This, I suggest, is another of these para-Government bodies, whose operations do not come before this Committee to any great extent. I understand that the Estimates Committee is precluded from full examination of the affairs of the Arts Council, and although a footnote to the Estimate states that the accounts are audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General, his concern is free to range far and wide for what it wants, and to come to this Committee for public money without a great deal of discussion or examination being involved. I think we are entitled to ask first whether the budget of the Arts Council is settled in detail with the Treasury; secondly, whether this is the total amount of the Council's expenditure, and thirdly, whether this organisation presents an annual report to the Treasury, a report which can be laid on the Table of the House and debated, if necessary. I think these are points which should have an answer.

§ Colonel Gomme-Duncan (Perth and Kinross, Perth)
I wish to ask one question also on Sub-head S with regard to the Arts Council for Great Britain. I see that this body undertakes the duties formerly performed by the Council for the Encouragement of Music and the Arts. This is a most admirable thing, but I want to know, where does music come into this? The previous Council was for the encouragement of musk and the arts; this other body is to take over the duties previously performed by it, but music is not specifically mentioned.

§ Mr. McGovern (Glasgow, Shettleston)
Is it "Music while you work "?

§ Colonel Gomme-Duncan
The hon. Member is naturally interested in the same form of music as myself. But what I want to make clear is that we are giving extra money to this Council, and I want to know if music is going to he left out in favour of the other arts.

§ Mr. Butcher
I should like further information about this North Sea Fisheries Investigation. Is it concerned with investigations which will be a real help to my constituents, who border on the Wash? We have had trouble in recent months in regard to mussel fishing, and I wonder if this Board's investigations are intended to aid and assist my constituents to bring these delicacies to the London market in proper condition. Can 1117 the Financial Secretary tell us what are the investigations of this organisation? As regards the Scott Polar Research Institute, I think the details in the Vote add little to the information already given us. I do not doubt that the right hon. Gentleman who is to reply will be able to give us a thrilling story of heroism and bravery, but I would like to know more.
Finally, I come to Subhead S concerning the Arts Council of Great Britain. I think that it is time this Committee reduced the grant of money to this peculiar body, which seems to appoint its own controllers and governors, which receives substantial benefits from public funds and the accounts of which are not presented to this House. There are all sorts of extraordinary stories heard about this Arts Council. Certain theatrical tours overseas have its blessing; others have not. We are entitled to considerably more information about this Arts Council, what it does, and why it should need £30,000 more this year than it did 12 months ago. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will have realised how extraordinarily reluctant this Committee is to make these substantial grants to many of these hybrid bodies. I think the time has come when we must insist on far more detailed accounts on all matters of public expenditure.

§ Mr. Glenvil Hall
Three questions have been put to me, centring on S., SS., and V. The first one related to the Scott Polar Research Institute. This Institute was founded, and is financed, by the balance which remained from the Mansion House Fund which was raised in 1912 in memory of Captain Scott and his companions. The Institute uses the money for Polar research, and it has, down the years, done remarkably good work for this country, and, indeed, for scientific exploration and knowledge generally. A few months ago it was pointed out to the Treasury that the work done by this Institute would suffer if some kind of assistance were not given to it, and we were pressed by the three Service Departments and by the Inter-Departmental Polar Committee, of which Sir Alexander Clutterbuck is chairman, to see what could be done to assist this particular organisation. After examining its financial position, we decided that it would be a good thing if a grant-in-aid to assist it in carrying on its work could be made. The Treasury thereupon 1118 agreed to the amount of £1,800, which appears in this Supplementary Estimate. The work which the Institute does is excellent, and I am sure that the Committee would desire the Institute to continue with its researches.

§ Captain Crookshank
What does it do?

§ Mr. Glenvil Hall
It carries out all kinds of research in the Polar regions, dealing with the various types of fish and mammals found there, with temperatures, arid with all the various things which mankind should know about those regions. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about the other things?"] I do not desire to detain the Committee unduly, but I ought perhaps to say a word about the North Sea Fisheries Investigation. This particular body whose headquarters are situated in Copenhagen, has been in existence for at least 30 years. During the war, owing to the occupation of Denmark by the German forces, we lost touch with it. Since the war ended, it has been thought proper that this country should renew its affiliation, and start once again to pay the grant-in-aid which was paid to this body before the war. The amount we pay yearly is 20,000 Danish kroner, and it has been decided that, as from this year at least we should pay the amount. We have agreed--subject, of course, to the agreement of Parliament—to pay this amount for the next five years. This body carries out investigation in the North Sea, and all the various nations bordering thereon take part in its work. I hope the Committee will agree to our continuing to be associated with this good work.

§ Colonel Gomme-Duncan
May we have an answer to the two questions on Subhead S, which were asked by my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) and myself? They were perfectly reasonable questions.

§ Mr. Glenvil Hall
The £30,000 extra grant to the Arts Council is to assist the Covent Garden Opera Trust in its work, which I think the Committee will agree is music.

§ Lieut.-Colonel Elliot
Opera.

§ Mr. Glenvil Hall
It was pointed out by the Arts Council that this particular body was well deserving, but that it had got itself into financial difficulties; and after investigation we agreed—and I hope the 1119 Committee will also agree—that a further sum of £30,000 should be granted to the Arts Council, which in turn could be passed on to the Covent Garden Opera Trust for this work.

§ Captain Crookshank
I should like to make one comment on the right hon. Gentleman's speech, and that is, to call the attention of the Committee to how history repeats itself. In 1930, when the country was in grave danger from unemployment, I remember making a speech, of which I have been reminded this evening in the Committee, on what the Government intended to do to remedy that desperate situation. You will remember, Major Milner, that one of the main contributions was a proposal to grant a subsidy to grand opera. We understand from the White Paper on economy, which is due to appear, that the nation is in considerable difficulties at the present time. We are all certainly aware that as a result of the desperate fuel shortage there are over two million people out of work in this country today. And the same solution is offered by a Socialist Government, namely, asking this Committee for a subsidy for grand opera.

The Chairman
I hope the Committee will soon come to a decision.

§ Mr. Osborne
I wish to ask a question on Subhead V, North Sea Fisheries Investigation. Part of my constituency is interested in Grimsby, and we are very interested in North Sea fisheries. Does this Council actually control the condition of catchments in the North Sea?

§ Mr. Glenvil Hall
No, of course not.

§ Mr. Butcher
I have a feeling the Committee is making admirable progress in its work of extracting information from the Government. If the right hon. Gentleman had not been pressed repeatedly on this particular Estimate we should not have been able to secure from him the interesting and astonishing fact, that the people of this country are required to subsidise grand opera at Covent Garden to the extent of £30,000. It is the sort of thing which I, for my part, would not like to have to justify to a body of agricultural workers or miners. It is very easy for right hon. Gentlemen opposite to be free 1120 with money here. But the money is coming out of the pockets of the ordinary working people of this country. There is really no justification for expecting the miners, who are working so gallantly for the country at this—[Interruption]—I am afraid, Major Milner, that if I am interrupted I shall lose the chain of my thoughts and have to repeat myself. It is impossible to expect the ordinary miners or farmworkers of this country to think they are being well governed when they are asked to vote £30,000 to subsidise grand opera at Covent Garden, which they are very unlikely to see personally. And from what I hear, whenever it is broadcast they immediately turn off the wireless. I am surprised indeed that a Labour Government should have the effrontery to come before us with such a suggestion, and I do not blame the right hon. Gentleman for being so reticent when we try to draw these facts from him

§ Viscount Hinchingbrooke
I did ask the Financial Secretary three specific questions, none of which he has answered. I hope he did not think I was asking them for the purpose of obstruction. I asked whether the £350,000 was the total budget of the Arts Council and, if not, whether it has other funds to draw upon, and whether it would present an annual report for examination.

§ Mr. Glenvil Hall
This is the first year of the existence of this Council. It works under a Royal Charter which was granted on 9th August, 1946. I speak under correction, but it is my belief that it does collect some moneys from outside. I would not be sure of that, but the grant in aid from the Government is, this year, as stated in the Estimate, £350,000.

§ Sir W. Darling
The Committee are perhaps not aware that the Arts Council of Great Britain is the successor to C.E.M.A. C.E.M.A. did draw some funds from the public. They put on performances in different parts of the country which, in my opinion, were unsuitable and for which the public paid specified sums for admittance. While C.E.M.A. was a luxury we could afford if we were a wealthy country, or was a type of entertainment which might have been necessary in the harsh days of war, I doubt whether there is justification for the Arts Council of Great Britain today. Like all new bodies in a new sphere, C.E.M.A. blun- 1121 dered and muddled, and was not very successful. To ask the public to pay £350,000 for this, seems undesirable. The C.E.M.A. operated without paying the taxation which ordinary theatres and cinemas have to pay to the Exchequer. It is a privileged body, and, in addition to the privilege, it is being subsidised to the extent of £350,000. It seems to me that encouragement of an expenditure of this character is unseemly, and unbecoming to the circumstances of the hour. I will vote against this payment, as I think my constituents would wish me to. I want to encourage the arts, but I do not think this is the way to do so.
This subsidy of certain types of entertainment which are largely dictated by persons who have not my political views, but people who have advanced views about the arts, is for a kind of entertainment which the public would not normally seek. The names of the plays which have been produced under C.E.M.A. are mostly of a foreign character, or they are produced by persons who are not of the conventional theatrical outlook. I do not think we should subsidise what is indeed a specialist movement. No doubt C.E.M.A. 's endeavours were admirable when we could afford them, but I do not think we can now be asked to put on the Statute Book a body called the Arts Council of Great Britain. We should tell those who are interested in the arts to find some other way of getting patrons.

§ Mr. Malcolm MacMillan (Western Isles)
I wish strongly to disagree with the two previous speakers on this point. I am quite sure that the Government are right in bringing forward this Estimate to supply, if necessary, these entertainments for the people of this country, most of all for agricultural workers and others, especially in areas to which private enterprise will not go. I am sure that this Committee will support the Government in that. I am sure that if the hon. Member who had spoken against this Estimate went to the people in the rural areas, among the fisher folk, they would find as high a taste in the arts and music as among Members of this Committee, including the hon. Member for South Edinburgh (Sir W. Darling), who entertains us in this House in his perhaps more conventional, theatrical way.

§ Sir W. Darling
The fees of my entertainment were imposed upon me as re 1122 luctantly as I think this charge should be imposed upon the public.

§ Mr. MacMillan
The hon. Member is under no obligation to have those fees imposed upon him, any more than he is under compulsion to accept profits from workers in his private enterprise business.
I know that C.E.M.A. did excellent work in places where no private enterprise would have provided entertainment of that kind. They went to the Hebrides, the Orkneys and the Shetlands during the war. They were greatly appreciated and were invited back. They went at great personal inconvenience, and put up an excellent show, in the best sense of the term. The people there, all the crofters, fishermen and the rest, flocked to see them and to meet them personally because of their deep interest in their work and what they had to offer. I hope that no Member opposite will be such a snob as to suggest that agricultural workers have not at least as good a taste as the hon. Member for South Edinburgh.

§ Mr. Osborne
I represent an agricultural constituency, and I think my constituents like good music and have as good an appreciation as any Member on the benches opposite, but they would rather have this £350,000 spent on cooking fats.

§ Colonel Gomme-Duncan
I think the hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. M. MacMillan) has raised an excellent point. We do not know how this £350,000 is to be expended. We do not know, for example, how much is to be given to Scotland. We are entitled to know, when a grant of this size is being given, that a reasonable and fair proportion will be given to the encouragement of the arts and music in Scotland as well as in England. As the noble Lord has said, there is nothing to show how this money is expended by this body, though I am sure the matter will come before the Public Accounts Committee, after it has been spent. May we not know what is to happen, in order that we may have some opportunity of judging for ourselves?