MISCELLANEOUS EXPENSES (Hansard, 18 February 1947)

§ Mr. Peake
I should imagine that the great majority of Members in the Committee are favourable to the contribution to the National Trust of £60,000, which is the item for which this Supplementary Estimate is presented. But I think that the right hon. Gentleman might be asked to explain to the Committee, quite briefly, why the gross amount of £60,000 is reduced to £20,000 by the "Anticipated Saving on Subhead B (Honours and Dignities—Expenses)."

§ The Chairman (Major Milner)
I cannot permit an answer to be given to that question. It is a matter of saving which, as the right hon. Gentleman knows quite well, is not a matter which we can properly discuss.

§ Mr. Peake
I understood the Ruling given earlier was concerned with the question of appropriations in aid. This is not an appropriation in aid. This is a saving on another Subhead of the Vote which is specifically set up in Part II of the Supplementary Estimate. In my respectful submission the right hon. Gentleman is not precluded from explaining—

§ The Chairman
I have made it quite clear that a question of saving cannot be discussed on a Supplementary Estimate.

§ Mr. Marlowe
Before we leave the question of the National Trust, there is a matter I wish to raise with the Financial Secretary. I am sorry that his hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General has left, because the matter to which I wish to refer is one with which he is familiar. I have not given the Financial Secretary any notice of this and perhaps he will not be as familiar with it as would be the Solicitor-General. Part of this expenditure of the National Trust relates to some land in the South Downs at the Seven Sisters. This a matter in which the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. C. S. Taylor) is interested. We want to know to what extent the Financial Secretary proposes to use any of this money for that land. It is land which is within the National Trust—

§ The Chairman
I do not think we can go into details on that matter. The grant is a general one for the National Trust, which deals with it as it thinks proper. I do not think the Financial Secretary can be expected to give details of what 1108 is to happen to a specific sum. The National Trust has other moneys. It would be quite inappropriate, on a Supplementary Estimate dealing with a grant to the National Trust, to ask for details of the expenditure of the Trust.

§ Mr. Marlowe
May I make this submission? Surely if the National Trust asks for £60,000, part of which is to be spent on particular land in which I and other people are interested, one is entitled to ask the Financial Secretary how the money is to be spent. I fully realise that the Financial Secretary may be in difficulties in answering—

§ Mr. Glenvil Hall
Not a bit.

§ Mr. Marlowe
Surely, I cannot be out of Order in making my request in regard to that.

§ The Chairman
On the contrary, the hon. and learned Gentleman is distinctly out of Order. The proposal is that £60,000 should be granted by way of a contribution to the general fund. Presumably the National Trust has other funds. If this goes to the general fund it is perfectly clear that it is not appropriate to discuss in detail how the funds should be dealt with.

§ Captain Crookshank (Gainsborough)
On that point of Order, It is not unknown that when people give other people money they should earmark some portion of it for a certain purpose. That is frequently the case with the National Trust. Many people have given money to the National Trust and said, "I want my gift to go for a particular purpose." Therefore, is it not in Order for my hon. and learned Friend to ask the Minister whether he has been wise enough in this case to make a donation to the purpose to which he has in mind?

§ The Chairman
It may be in Order to ask the Financial Secretary whether the Government have made a contribution for a specific purpose though in fact the Estimate shows that it is a contribution to the general fund. If hon. Members care to put that question I shall not raise any objection.

§ Mr. Marlowe
In order not to waste time, may I put to the Financial Secretary the specific question which my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Gains- 1109 borough (Captain Crookshank) was good enough to frame? If a particular sum of money is donated to the National Trust for a specific purpose, can one be sure that it will be used for that purpose? Without referring again to the particular piece of land which I have in mind, may I ask the Financial Secretary what safeguard there is by which we can be assured that, if the money is provided under this Vote, the National Trust does not abuse that money by enclosing land which was required to be left unenclosed by the donor? If, for instance, a donor gives a large tract of land to the National Trust with a request that it should be left open, what powers have they to have it enclosed?

§ The Chairman
I am sorry, but the hon. and learned Gentleman is going beyond the bounds of Order.

§ Mr. Marlowe
I will try not to go beyond the bounds of Order any further, and will leave aside the particular question and ask the Financial Secretary the general question whether the National Trust—

§ The Chairman
The hon. and learned Gentleman is still out of Order. The powers of the National Trust do not enter into this at all.

§ Mr. Marlowe
I will take only two more sentences, and will not go into the powers of the National Trust. I will just ask what they do with the money, and, surely, I am entitled to ask that? If we vote this money with which I am concerned at the moment, will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that the National Trust will stand by the conditions contained in the bequest?

§ Mr. Keeling (Twickenham)
As I am a member of the Executive Committee of the National Trust, I may be able to help my hon. and learned Friend, if I am in Order in doing so. This —60,000 was granted by the Chancellor subject to the approval of the Committee, purely in order to double the amount raised by the Jubilee Appeal of the National Trust. The Chancellor promised a pound for every pound subscribed in response to that appeal. Certain members of the public, including, I know, one hon. Member of this House, offered a donation to the National Trust for a particular estate, on the condition that it would attract a pound-for-pound contribution by 1110 the Treasury, but the National Trust declined to accept any such sums on that condition, because it was quite clear that the money was being granted by the Chancellor for the Trust's general funds and that no offer of a contribution for a special purpose or a special piece of land could attract a contribution from the Treasury.

§ Mr. C. S. Taylor (Eastbourne)
I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Brighton (Mr. Marlowe) for raising this matter, which, I may say, he had promised to do because I was unavoidably prevented from being in my place by an engagement outside. I oppose the granting of this money to the National Trust, on the ground that the National Trust have not fulfilled the trust which was imposed upon them. I understand that the Attorney-General, who is responsible to this House for the National Trust—if any Minister can be held responsible for the workings of a trust of that nature—has intimated that he is not prepared to use his authority over the National Trust to compel them to do the job which we as hon. Members of this House expect them to do. The area to which my hon. and learned Friend referred was that area of the South Downs known as the Seven Sisters and—

§ The Chairman
That is something which happened some little time ago, and it would not appear to have any relation to the present grant.

§ Mr. Taylor
With due humility, Major Milner, I suggest that I be given the opportunity of using this illustration to show why, in my opinion, the National Trust is not fulfilling the function which it is expected by the nation to fulfil. This land was given to the National Trust as an open space for all time.

§ The Chairman
The hon. and gallant Gentleman is entitled to make general statements but he is not entitled to speak on any particular detailed matter on which he alleges that the National Trust has not carried out the functions entrusted to it.

§ Mr. Taylor
If I may, I should like to use this as an illustration of the fact that the National Trust have not fulfilled the functions expected of them by the nation, and for that reason I am opposing the grant of this £20,000. If I may briefly say so, the National Trust allows—

§ The Chairman
I am sure that the hon. Member will appreciate that, although he may be brief, he must also be relevant.

§ Mr. Taylor
I am trying to explain to the Committee, as shortly as I can, why, in my opinion, the National Trust have not fulfilled the functions that the nation expected from them, and I submit that the argument that I am now putting forward is relevant to that question. The National Trust allowed this area to be fenced off, contrary to the wishes of the donors of that land, and, in this, it seems to me, they have committed a breach of faith to those people who generously—

§ Mr. Keeling
On a point of Order. If charges like this are to be brought against the National Trust, I must ask for the right to reply. I think, Major Milner, that you have ruled the discussion out of Order.

§ The Chairman
The hon. Gentleman will appreciate the difficulty into which we may get. If he sticks to specific cases, it will involve a discussion of specific cases, and other hon. Members may wish to reply. For that reason, I cannot allow him to continue in his line of argument. He has made a general statement, and he is not entitled to go into particulars or details.

§ Viscount Hinchingbrooke
On a point of Order. Your Ruling tonight, Major Milner, makes this Committee virtually inoperative. As I understand it, it is that, if the House has sanctioned expenditure, which forms any part of the total expenditure, even up to 99 per cent., of one of these para-Government bodies like the National Trust, we are precluded from discussing the operations of such a body. In fact, in view of your Ruling, I do not see what we can discuss, except the virtue of giving or not giving this sum of money.

§ The Chairman
The noble Lord should not put words into my mouth. However, he is right in saying that the matter is virtually one of giving or not giving this sum. No details of the operation of the National Trust can be discussed in this Debate.

§ Mr. Taylor
If I had levelled charges at the National Trust without quoting any specific instance, the Committee would, I think, have had every right to say that my remarks were frivolous. But, as I am in possession of certain facts which show 1112 that the National Trust have betrayed the trust imposed in them—

§ The Chairman
As I understand it, the National Trust is not under Government control. The Government are not responsible for its detailed operation, and, therefore, details of its operation cannot be gone into. The Government make a contribution to the general fund, and it is open to hon. Members to speak against that if they wish so to do.

§ Captain Crookshank
Surely, Major Milner, it is not irrelevant to discuss what is to be done by a body to which this Committee is going to vote money? After all, I understood you to say that all that it is competent for us to discuss is whether or not we should vote the money. Surely, in deciding whether to vote the money it is open to hon. Members to say whether or not they think the organisation to which it is desired to give the money is a good or a bad one. If there are any who know nothing about the National Trust—I do not plead guilty to that because I do know something about it—surely it is relevant that such hon. Members who are reluctant to vote public money for that purpose should adduce reasons for their reluctance.

§ Mr. Marlowe
I understood you to rule, Major Milner. that we should not criticise the Government in this matter because they themselves are not spending the money but only handing it over to the National Trust. Are we not entitled to request that when they hand this public money which we are voting to the National Trust, they should ensure that the National Trust do not use it for enclosing land against which there is a condition?

§ Mr. Eric Fletcher (Islington, East)
May I ask you, Major Milner, whether it is competent for the Committee to consider the policy which will be followed by the National Trust in the expenditure of that money which the Committee is being asked to vote?

§ Mr. Butcher
Is not the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. C. S. Taylor) entitled to adduce as an argument to show why this money should not be granted, that the body to which it is proposed to grant the money have, in certain conditions, not discharged their duties?

§ The Chairman
The Committee will appreciate that this is an item in a Sup- 1113 plementary Estimate and not a main Estimate—

§ Captain Crookshank
It is a new service.

§ The Chairman
It may well be a new service, but we shall get into difficulties if we discuss in detail the operations of a body to which it is proposed to make a contribution, and for which body the Government have no responsibility. In general terms, yes; but in detail, no; or the discussion would resolve itself into a discussion of the operations of that body and not of the desirability or otherwise of voting the money.

§ Captain Crookshank
On that point, does not the fact that this is a new service entirely alter the situation? This is not a Supplementary Estimate. It comes among the Supplementary Estimates, but there is no estimate for this purpose in the main Civil Estimates. Therefore, I put it to you, Major Milner, that, according to all precedents, the whole subject is at large.

§ Mr. Glenvil Hall
Perhaps I might help the Committee here. The Committee will remember that, during one of his Budget speeches last May, the Chancellor of the Exchequer indicated that he would, if the House agreed, make a grant from the Exchequer to the National Trust on a pound-for-pound basis to assist it in its jubilee appeal. So far as I know, in no quarter of the House was exception taken to this proposal at that time. In October, when my hon. Friend the Member for Accrington (Mr. Scott-Elliot) asked the Chancellor whether he was going to implement his promise, he indicated that the amount he was going to give was £60,000, which at that time roughly approximated to the amount which the jubilee fund had received. Again, no one in any quarter of the House objected. We have assumed, and I hope quite rightly, in spite of what has been said tonight about the National Trust, which is doing a great work, that it is the general wish of the Committee that this money should be voted. It is true that the payment has not been made before. In that sense, it is, as the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Gainsborough (Captain Crookshank) has said, something new, but, nevertheless, it is a payment which, in my sub 1114 mission, Parliament has agreed to, in view of what has happened during the past year. That is why we take it that the Committee generally would like this expenditure to be made, and why we are now asking for it.

§ Mr. C. S. Taylor
I think, generally speaking, that the National Trust do good work. On the other hand, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will bring to the notice of the National Trust the extreme dissatisfaction which some hon. Members of this Committee feel over the particular case that has been quoted against the National Trust as showing that it has not fulfilled the trust reposed in it by the nation.

§ Mr. Butcher
Before this sum of £60,00 is granted to the National Trust I would like to ask the Financial Secretary if steps will be taken to ensure that the Government have some voice in its expenditure. After all, £60,000 is a very substantial contribution on a pound for pound basis. The Chancellor of the Exchequer made the statement to which reference was made earlier, and I, for my part, would not take any exception to the granting of this money if I felt sure it would be applied in accordance with the wishes of this House. Therefore, I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is a condition of the making of this grant that there should be representation upon the governing body of the National Trust. I say to him, as a man born in Sussex that I view the behaviour of the National Trust in the case referred to with the gravest misgiving, and I do not feel the right hon. Gentleman has been as careful as he might have been in the national interest, in granting this large sum of money unless he has some voice to decide how it is expended. I would also ask the right hon. Gentleman whether I am correct in thinking that this sum will not be subject to audit by the Auditor General; that it is a grant and. once it has been granted, we lose complete control.

§ Mr. Glenvil Hall
indicated assent.

§ Mr. Butcher
The right hon. Gentleman assents. In that case, all I can say is that if we have no control over the money once it has been granted, then we must impress upon the National Trust that they should see that this money is- 1115 expended entirely in accordance with the wishes of the vast majority of this House