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Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £550,000, he granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1947, for the salaries and expenses of the Inland Revenue Department.
§ 11.15 p.m.
§ Mr. Manningham-BullerI see that in Item B, "Travelling and Removal Expenses," there is an additional sum of £60,000 required. Could the Financial Secretary say what proportion of the total sum is due to removal expenses and what amount for travelling? This is a pretty substantial sum, and I think we ought to be told that is the sum that is not likely to recur again, and what is the normal sum for travelling.
§ Mr. HowardMay f ask the Financial Secretary some questions arising out of Vote A? The first is: Can he tell us how much of this additional sum of £490,000 is in respect of additional staff for P.A.Y.E.. and how much for the other purposes? Secondly, can he tell us whether he is quite satisfied that this Supplementary Estimate for increased estimates for administration in P.A.Y.E. will be the last he will have to bring forward for this purpose? I venture to think that the events of the recent weeks may add considerably to the cost of administering the P.A.Y.E. scheme, and I think it is important that we should know whether this is likely to be the last supplementary item which we shall be asked to vote for this purpose.
§ Mr. OsborneMay I ask a question concerning Class B "Travelling and Removal Expenses "? That affects, I take it, the Inland Revenue people who are in Blackpool and in Lancashire at the present time. As we have heard on many occasions, most of them want to come back to London. Can the Financial Secretary give us any information that they are to be brought back and this item will disappear?
§ Mr. Glenvil HallI am sorry, but I am not able to reply to the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller).I 1129 have not the information here but I will certainly get the Inland Revenue to let me have these figures, and I will pass them on to him in due course. The answer to the question about the salaries under Subhead A is that there has been an increase in the nine months ending 31st December last from 27,900 to 33,000, that is, an increase of 5,100, in the staff dealing with P.A.Y.E.
§ Mr. HowardThat is in numbers, not in amount?
§ Mr. Glenvill HallIn numbers. How much of the additional £490,000 is attributable to salaries, and how much to the extra amount payable on account of National Insurance, I cannot, at the moment, say, but I would say that obviously the one can bear little or no relationship to the other, and that the vast bulk of this extra money will go actually on salaries for the 5,100 extra people I have mentioned. Although P.A.Y.E. has, as I think the Committee knows, been very much in arrears in the latter part of the war, I can give the Committee this assurance—no further recruitment is to take place. That, of course, is in view of the man-power shortage, and is not due to the fact that the Inland Revenue could not do with the extra staff. The staff is working extremely hard under difficult conditions, but I can assure the Committee that we have no intention of further increasing the numbers under this head. I think that this answers most if not all of the queries put to me.
§ Mr. OsborneMay I ask the Financial Secretary if his statement foreshadows the end of P.A.Y.E.?
§ Mr. Glenvil HallOh, no.
§ Mr. HowardI do not want to press this matter too far, but is there any real danger of further arrears arising in the settlement of P.A.Y.E.? Does the fact that the Financial Secretary does not propose to get further staff mean that there is a danger of arrears accumulating? I would be glad to have an answer.
§ Colonel Gomme-DuncanIs it not an extraordinary thing that an estimate of the number of staff required could not have been made by the right hon. Gentleman's Department? Could it not have been foreseen? Here we are, nearly a half a million 1130 of money out in a calculation. The right hon. Gentleman says that there is a shortage of manpower, but I suggest that he should ask himself "Where is the manpower?" It is in establishments where the Government are hiding it—where the Government are hiding people instead of putting them into their proper places. The Home Secretary laughs, but if he does not know the facts he is not fit to hold his present position. I should like to get an answer as to why this Estimate was so badly done when first presented.
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Resolved:
That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding,550,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1947, for the salaries and expenses of the Inland Revenue Department.