HC Deb 06 February 1947 vol 432 cc1966-73
80. Mr. Ellis Smith

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he knew the fuel and power needs of industry at the end of last year; the increased needs this year and the fuel and power that would be available; why plans were not made to meet the situation; why industry was not consulted or informed; and why the Press conference statement was made before the details were worked out.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. Belcher)

The fuel and power needs of industry at the end of last year, and the increased needs of this year were, of course, known to the Board of Trade. The amounts of fuel and power that would be available are not capable of such a close estimation, and the estimates have been revised from time to time as the situation developed. As regards the third and fourth parts of the Question, the machinery for allocating fuel to industry was devised, in full consultation with both sides of industry before the winter started, and adjustments in allocations have been made during the winter to bring consumption into line with available supplies. The scheme must necessarily be elastic, and, in view of the inevitable uncertainties about the level of supplies, I do not accept the implications of the last part of the Question.

Mr. Ellis Smith

Whilst attributing no responsibility to my hon. Friend, may I ask if he is aware that this breakdown in administration and organisation has caused great consternation in industrial centres? Can he give an assurance to the House that immediate steps are being taken to deal with the serious situation and prevent its recurrence in the future?

Mr. Belcher

I am only too well aware of the consternation which is being felt in industry, but I do not acept the implication that there has been a breakdown in organisation. I am able to give my hon. Friend an assurance, however, that the matter is under constant review.

Major P. Roberts

How far was the complacency of the Minister of Fuel and Power last summer responsible for that bad estimation?

Mr. Belcher

Again I am not prepared to accept such an implication.

Mr. R. S. Hudson

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Government were repeatedly warned from this side of the House as long ago as last July that unless they built up better stocks during the summer, the present crisis would arise this winter?

Mr. Belcher

I am very well aware that if more urgent steps had been taken quite a long time ago—[Interruption]—many years ago, this situation would never have arisen.

Mr. Ellis Smith

At the end of Question time, Mr. Speaker, I shall ask your permission to call attention to a matter of urgent public importance.

Later—

Mr. Ellis Smith

I desire to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance—namely, the recent allocation of coal to industrial areas, which has resulted in the closing of works and factories causing short time and unemployment.

Mr. Speaker

First, there is a technical objection. We are going on to the Adjournment today and therefore one cannot move the Adjournment at 7.30 because we shall already be there. One could get round that, I admit, by calling on the hon. Member if he catches my eye round about 7.30. I do not propose to take that course but to follow the Rules, particularly Rule 8. One cannot say that the coal shortage is a definite matter which has suddenly arisen. One cannot, under Rule 8, give preference to a continuing matter. There is another reason, which is, perhaps, more telling still. That is that one should raise such a matter at the first opportunity. The first opportunity was Monday, when Austin's motor works were brought before the House by a Private Notice Question. It was not raised then and therefore the hon. Member has lost his chance.

Mr. Ellis Smith

I know I am not entitled to debate this, but I would like to put one or two points, in order that you might reconsider the Ruling you have given. The Austin Motor Company's position was a concrete example. But, since then, the allocation has had such a serious effect on industrial centres that it now becomes a matter of urgent public importance. I submit that the conditions upon which a Private Member asks leave of Mr. Speaker to move the Adjournment of the House are set out clearly in the 14th edition of Erskine May. The first is that the matter must be definite, the second that the matter must be urgent and the third that the matter must involve administrative responsibilities of the Government. I submit that the issue of allocation surely comes within the question of Departmental administration in the allocation of coal.

Mr. Speaker

I do not think the hon. Member could say it is definite. In any case, I have pointed out that Rule 8 could not be applied, because we will already be on the Adjournment. When one refers to allocation of coal to industrial areas, that is hardly a definite matter; it is a wide matter, it seems to me. That is my Ruling, and I should have thought that it was a matter which could have been taken up later on. As we have heard in Questions and answers in this House, the whole matter is one to which consideration is being given.

Mr. Churchill

On a point of Order. I presume that as we are now to have a Debate on the Adjournment, hon. Members are perfectly free to raise such topics as they choose if they are fortunate enough to catch your eye? Therefore, this matter would be quite relevant to the Debate we are to take this afternoon if hon. Members choose?

Mr. Speaker

I thought I had indicated that in my first answer. I said we were on the Adjournment, and therefore, while Rule 8 could not apply, it would not be quite the same thing. Yet of course it would be in Order on the Adjournment.

Mr. Ellis Smith

You know, from your experience, Mr. Speaker, that it is not a good thing to intervene with another issue in a Debate which has been agreed upon. Therefore, it is unfortunate that we are now concerned with the Adjournment. If we cannot have a definite time fixed, surely the matter should not be raised during the Debate on this other issue. In view of the fact that the matter has now been raised by the Leader of the Opposition, will you reconsider your Ruling, and can we now have a definite time fixed, so that we can discuss the matter?

Mr. Prescott

May I point out that I have secured the Debate on the Motion for the Adjournment tomorrow on this very question of coal shortage? Would it not be possible for the Government to allow fuller time for a Debate tomorrow instead of our reaching the Motion for the Adjournment at the ordinary time?

Mr. Blackburn

In view of the fact that it has been known for some time that the hon. Member for Darwen (Mr. Prescott) is to raise this matter on the Adjournment, it would be a great convenience to Members who have a number of people in difficulty in their constituency, if some time could be given by the Government tomorrow to enable the matter to be discussed.

Mr. Eden

May I, at this stage, address an observation to the acting Leader of the House? Would it not be possible for the Government to consider whether they cannot re-arrange the Business for tomorrow, which is not of an urgent nature, and give us a period of time for this discussion tomorrow, in an agreed and orderly manner? If that could be done I think it would meet the point of view of Members in all parts of the House.

The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Arthur Greenwood)

I am bound to say that I do not like disarranging the Business already arranged—

Mr. Martin Lindsay

The Government disarranged Austin's business.

Mr. Greenwood

Perhaps I might be allowed to make the statement which I am making at the invitation of the right hon. Gentleman. The House last Thursday agreed to the Business for tomorrow. The House is on the point of agreeing to the Business for next Friday. Tomorrow's Business must be got through, otherwise we go down on the Friday following, because there are four Bills down for consideration then. If it should be that the House, in its wisdom, accepts the Second Reading of the Bills down for consideration tomorrow at an early hour, there will be longer time for Debate on the Adjournment. It does not lie on my conscience to try to fix a time of day whereby there can be a longer Debate on the Motion for the Adjournment. That is a matter for the House itself. The Business for tomorrow must go on, but if it is completed quickly there will be more time for an Adjournment Debate on the coal issue.

Mr. Eden

Does the right hon. Gentleman not understand that my attempt was to seek a Debate on the coal situation under conditions acceptable in all parts of the House, and surely the Government do not deny that the situation is one deserving of Debate, and urgently so? In view of Mr. Speaker's Ruling, I thought that might be an acceptable way out. If the right hon. Gentleman will not provide us with an orderly and acceptable means of Debate, all that is left to us is to find whatever method we can, but we should have preferred an agreed method.

Mr. Greenwood

I thought I had offered that if the House wished to dispose of Business quickly tomorrow morning—[Interruption]—I am making a perfectly reasonable answer. Tomorrow's Business, by agreement of the House a week ago, must be transacted tomorrow. If the House is so anxious about the coal situation—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—I said if it is, surely it can make up its mind on the relatively small, in a sense, but important Measures, and there will then be ample opportunity left for a Debate which the Government have no desire to shirk. But one must stand by the Business for tomorrow. It is in the hands of the House as to how long it has for Debate tomorrow.

Mr. Speaker

Perhaps it might be, of help if I intervened. After all, the hon. Member for Darwen (Mr. Prescott) is to speak on the Motion for the Adjournment tomorrow, so he has at least one half hour. As the Business is regarded, I think, as more or less non-contentious, surely it is in the hands of the House to have this Debate if it so wishes, whether the Government wish it or not?

Mr. Clement Davies

May I make an appeal on this matter? It is a most vital matter to the country and to production. It is a matter of whether men can be kept at work. We cannot possibly discuss this matter in a short time. It affects every constituency. If we cannot have an allotted time tomorrow, might I make another suggestion? Would the Government consider a reallocation of Business for next week and allot Monday for this Debate? I am quite sure that Members in every part of the House will want to take part in such a Debate.

Mr. Greenwood

I appreciate the anxiety of hon. Members, but it seems to have blown up in the course of three days. Mr. Speaker has already pointed out that there was an opportunity to raise this matter on Monday as a definite matter of urgent public importance. The opportunity was not taken. I still say that I am making a fairly generous offer to the House.

Mr. Pickthorn

Sit on Saturday.

Mr. Greenwood

Mr. Speaker has already said that the Business for tomorrow does not appear to be highly controversial.

Mr. Pickthorn

How does the right hon. Gentleman know?

Mr. Greenwood

If I get the Business which is down to be taken tomorrow, the House has the matter in its own hands. If the House cares to dispose of the Business expeditiously, we shall be prepared to meet the challenge, from whichever side it comes on the broad coal issue. I cannot put down a time for the Debate, and say that we will finish our Business by 11.30 a.m. That would be quite improper, and Mr. Speaker would not allow me. The matter is in the hands of the House. If hon. Members are so earnest about the coal situation it is for the Members of the House to bear their responsibility, and get rid of the Business.

Mr. Eden

I do not desire to discuss this matter in a spirit of controversy. We are talking about a matter of great gravity. Do I understand the position to be that, supposing the House is prepared to dispose of the Business on the Paper tomorrow in a short space, and it may be that we on this side would be ready to co-operate in that, the Government would meet us in that through the usual channels, so that we might have at least the major part of tomorrow to discuss this major national matter?

Mr. Greenwood

I have been trying to say that. The matter will not be in my hands. As soon as Government Business is disposed of the matter is one for Members of this House. They can discuss what they like. If it should be that the House desires to discuss the coal situation, we shall not waver in accepting the challenge. If hon. Members will cooperate in getting the Business through, the rest of the day will be at the disposal of the House.

Mr. Prescott

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that even if we do reach the Adjournment early tomorrow it will not be satisfactory unless the Government render some assistance? The Minister of Fuel and Power has informed me that he will not be present tomorrow so that we shall discuss the coal situation, and the Minister mainly concerned will not be present.

Mr. Greenwood

I shall do my best to co-operate with the House in trying to have all responsible Ministers here if the Debate takes a serious form, as indeed it may. I think my hon. Friend perhaps has been a little misled.

Mr. Prescott

No.

Mr. Pickthorn

Could the right hon. Gentleman explain to us why, if he now thinks the Government Business tomorrow can be discussed satisfactorily in half an hour, he proposed that we should take a day over it?

Mr. Greenwood

I dislike the time of the House being wasted by the raising of frivolous questions. I knew that the hon. Member for Darwen (Mr. Prescott) had an Adjournment Motion down—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—Of course, I knew he had it down.

Mr. Pickthorn

Why is it that the Minister did not mean to be here?

Mr. Greenwood

All I say is that if the House is so anxious, with this new found zeal from the benches opposite, they can have all the time they want to discuss the problem tomorrow—

Mr. Pickthorn

Three and a half hours.

Mr. Greenwood

—so long as we get through the Business which is on the Order Paper.