HC Deb 09 December 1947 vol 445 cc827-30
18. Mr. Emrys Hughes

asked the Secretary of State for War if he intends to proceed with the acquisition of 22,000 acres of land for a practical training area in Roxburghshire; if he is aware that this means a reduction of between 7,000 and 8,000 breeding ewes in this area; and if, in view of the food shortage, he will further consider the matter.

Mr. Shinwell

My Department already owns a considerable acreage of land in this area, and desires to acquire a further area, making a total of 21,500 acres for use as a practical training area for Regular and Territorial Army units in Scotland. It is premature to assume that the proposal will mean a reduction in stock, as discussions are at present proceeding with local authorities and other interested parties to ensure the minimum interference with grazing and other local interests. These discussions are a necessary preliminary to the final consideration of the proposal by the Inter-Departmental Committee on Services Land Requirements.

Mr. Emrys Hughes

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the Debate on Scottish Agriculture the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for the Scottish Universities (Lieut. - Colonel Elliot) raised this question, and described the Secretary of State as a powerful baron contemplating another clearance; and would he consider a strategic withdrawal from this area?

Mr. Shinwell

I read both speeches to which my hon. Friend refers, and also his own speech, and, quite frankly, I did not think much of them.

Lord William Scott

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is impossible to hand over large tracts of country to be used for training without interfering with stock?

Mr. Shinwell

We do our very best to avoid any undue disturbance of stock. We are fully conscious of agricultural requirements. All this matter is being considered just now, and I have been meeting interested parties—and will continue to meet them—in order to make some satisfactory arrangements.

Mr. Bing

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Services as a whole use 550,000 acres of land which were used for agriculture in 1938? As the War Office is the largest user, will he consider very seriously not taking any more land which can be used for agricultural purposes?

Mr. Shinwell

That is an over-simplification of this problem, it appears to me. We have either to train the Army or to leave it untrained. If this House decides that it must be trained with modern weapons in accordance with modern practice, then we have to provide the facilities. On the other hand, I am very anxious to avoid any disturbance of agricultural land. Some of my hon. Friends are aware, and hon. Members opposite are aware, that I have been trying to effect a satisfactory arrangement. I shall continue to do so. But if we have to train the Army, then, obviously, we must have the facilities.

Mr. Snadden

In view of the devastating losses already suffered by the Scottish sheep stocks in the past winter, can the right hon. Gentleman say if he has consulted with the Secretary of State for Scotland, who is appealing for the rebuilding of those stocks as quickly as possible?

Mr. Shinwell

Consultations are always taking place inter-Departmentally, as the hon. Gentleman must be aware. I must say this about the Scottish position; the amount of land required in Scotland is, in proportion, very much below the amount of land we are seeking to acquire elsewhere, and my Welsh friends have suggested that, instead of acquiring too much land in Wales, we should turn our attention to Scotland.

Mr. H. D. Hughes

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that there is full consultation with the other Services to secure the most economical use of the areas taken?

Mr. Shinwell

There is always coordination, but one must beware of the use of the word "co-ordination."

Mr. Emrys Hughes

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the great reputation that he acquired as Minister of Fuel is in danger of being lost now?

Mr. Shinwell

Such reputation as I possess I desire to retain, but I can assure my hon. Friend in all modesty that I apply, I hope, a practical mind to the consideration of these problems.

22. Mr. Vane

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the increasing dissatisfaction among the farming community in North Westmorland at his prolonged delay in arriving at a decision about the future of the 40,000 acres of land held by his Department, and known locally as the Warcop Ranges; and when a decision will be reached.

Mr. Shinwell

The future of these ranges is at present under discussion. I regret, however, that it is not likely to be possible to announce a final decision until the whole question of land required by my Department for this particular type of training has been settled.

Mr. Vane

Is the Minister aware that it is a very long time since an early decision was promised; that these ranges cover approximately one-tenth of the whole county; and that it is quite impossible for farmers to plan the stocking of this land if the present conditions continue?

Mr. Shinwell

I have already expressed my views about the use of agricultural land, which is to avoid such use as far as possible. The hon. Member is associated with the Territorial Forces, as he recently claimed, and, therefore, he should know a little better than his Question indicates.

23. Mr. Vane

asked the Secretary of State for War what consultations he is holding with local agricultural interests to ensure that the military use of the Warcop Ranges allows owners and farmers to maintain their sheep in a reasonably healthy condition; and to ensure that claims for damage to equipment or stock are promptly settled.

Mr. Shinwell

So far as I am aware, there have been no serious difficulties or complaints about the grazing of sheep over these ranges, and claims have been settled without unnecessary delay. Claims officers keep in touch with the County Agricultural Executive Committee.

Mr. Vane

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that local farming interests do not agree with his reply; that they are of the opinion that, if consultations were more close, they would be able to stock these ranges much better; and is he further aware that I was doing a Territorial exercise last week in another county, and that the brigade staff had made proper arrangements with the farmers concerned so that we could make full use of their land without in any way interfering with agriculture? Could not the same be done in this case?

Mr. Shinwell

I hope the Territorial exercise did the hon. Member some good, and will enable him to furnish me with the details on which his Question is based.

24. Mr. Drayson

asked the Secretary of State for War if he has considered a resolution sent to him by the Old Sedberghian Club in connection with the use of the Sedbergh Fells as a military training area; and if he has any statement to make.

Mr. Shinwell

As stated by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 25th February last, efforts have been made to find an alternative area for the Martindale field firing range. Langdale Fell has been suggested by the local authorities, and a proposal to use this area is under consideration by the Inter-Departmental Committee on Services Land Requirements.