HC Deb 11 August 1947 vol 441 cc1920-2
Mr. Gallacher

I should like to raise a matter of Privilege, Mr. Speaker. There was an incident on Thursday night as a consequence of which I had to leave the House. I waited until some hon. Members came out and asked, "Have I been suspended?" They said, "No." I went down to the Terrace and was writing one or two notes when an officer came and told me that he had to escort me off the premises. I said, "I did not know I had been suspended." He said, "I have my instructions from the Serjeant at Arms." He was very courteous and very kind, and I have been very many times escorted by police so that that did not bother me, but the question of Privilege seems to me to arise whether an hon. Member can be escorted off the premises when he has not been suspended.

Mr. Speaker

I was not in the Chair at the time, but the occupant of the Chair, I understand, ordered the hon. Member to withdraw from the precincts, and there was some little trouble so I gather. If that is so, the hon. Member must obey the order and leave, and there is no other way. The hon. Member received that order from the Chair and I am afraid he must obey it.

Mr. Hogg

I was present throughout the entire incident to which the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) was a party, and I must say that it was really very difficult to understand what he had been ordered to do and whether he had been named or suspended. I understood the occupant of the Chair to ask him to leave the Chamber, which he did. Having heard all that took place myself, I must say that I am absolutely astonished to learn, having regard to what the occupant of the Chair said to the hon. Member, that he was thereafter asked to leave the precincts of the House. I really did not think that anything was said to him which would have led any hon. Member to understand that he was suspended.

Mr. Thurtle

From my own experience may I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that if an hon. Member is ordered to leave the Chamber by Mr. Speaker, that is, in effect, a technical suspension for 24 hours?

Mr. Gallacher

I was not asked to leave the precincts. I was escorted off the premises.

Viscount Hinchingbrooke

For the guidance of the House, and to assist hon. Members who are not correctly informed on Procedure, could you make it plain whether Mr. Deputy-Speaker has exactly the same powers as yourself, Sir, in this matter?

Mr. Speaker

Certainly, Mr. Deputy-Speaker is acting for me. The answer to the hon. Member for Shoreditch (Mr. Thurtle) is that if an hon. Member is suspended under Standing Order 19 it is for the remainder of that day's Sitting. That is the time during which the hon. Member has to withdraw, not 24 hours. It may be only one or two hours. I have a report on the matter—in fact I also read it in the newspapers—and I understand that the hon. Member was already leaving the Chamber, having thought that he had been ordered to withdraw, when the order to withdraw was, in fact, given. But the order to withdraw was given and, therefore, it stands.

Mr. Hogg

Further to that point, and in particular relation to what the hon. Member for Shoreditch (Mr. Thurtle) has said, does an order to leave the House involve the hon. Member in being escorted from the precincts of the House as well? If it does, we might as well be told that it necessarily follows and, with special reference to what the hon. Member for Shoreditch has said, surely, it is a totally novel doctrine that the Chair has power to suspend. Suspension can only follow from a Motion moved by the Leader of the House and carried—if need be by a Division—and, surely, if we are to know where we stand in this matter we must have a little further guidance. I can honestly say that having listened to every word that was spoken, I had not the remotest idea that such a pain or penalty would befall the hon. Member for West Fife.

Mr. Speaker

I am sorry, but the Standing Orders are there. I have to obey them and Mr. Deputy-Speaker has to obey them.

Sir Arnold Gridley

I have here the copy of HANSARD which records the incident, and Mr. Deputy-Speaker is reported as having said: I have to inform the House that I have to instruct the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) to leave the House, in view of the remarks he made."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 7th August, 1947; Vol. 441, c. 1743–4.]

Mr. Speaker

I think that that is perfectly clear, and I do not see what more there is to be said.

Mr. Boothby

Surely, it is not possible to order an hon. Member to leave unless he is named by Mr. Speaker?

Mr. Speaker

A Member is named under Standing Order 17 and ordered to leave the House under Standing Order 19. Those are the Rules and I cannot get round them. The House can alter them if it wishes.

Squadron-Leader Fleming

Could it be made definitely clear whether when an hon. Member is ordered to withdraw from the House that means also that he must withdraw from the precincts?

Mr. Speaker

Yes, that is the Rule.

Mr. Gallacher

I am satisfied now. If I had known I would have walked off the premises.