CLAUSE 6.—(Consultative Committees.) (Hansard, 29 April 1947)

§ Mr. Barnes
I beg to move, in page 9, line 33, at the end, to insert: (5) A person who is appointed a member of a Committee established under this section shall not by reason, of his appointment be disqualified for being elected to, or for sitting or voting as a member of, the Commons House of Parliament. 1900 This Amendment raises a very interesting issue, and I should be glad to observe and receive the reactions of the House towards this proposal. Hon. Members are aware that at the beginning of this Parliament, we had one or two instances of Members who were serving on bodies which, upon their election to this House, were ruled to be offices of profit under the Crown, and this necessitated Parliament having, first, to annul the disqualification, and, subsequently, to indemnify them for the penalties which their unconscious actions had brought upon them. I do not desire this Amendment to be interpreted as an intention to appoint Members of Parliament to these Consultative Committees, but at the same time, if this Amendment is accepted, it would mean that Members of Parliament would not of necessity be ruled out from being members of the Consultative Committees. The real purpose I have in mind is to benefit by the experience that we have had, and to make the necessary provision in the Bill so that if at any time any person who is a member of a Consultative Committee should be elected to the House of Commons, then the Act of Secession of the 18th 1901 Century, which still appears to govern some of our actions and decisions with rather unpleasant results, will be nullified in this case. That is the purpose of the Amendment. It is really promoted as protection against occurrences similar to those we experienced in the past rather than as an indication of an intention to go out of our way to appoint Members of Parliament to these Consultative Committees.
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On the other hand, I want to make it plain to hon. Members that, if this Amendment is accepted, they would be eligible if any Minister desired to appoint a Member of Parliament to one of these Consultative Committees. But, that being the case, I think it is necessary for me to complete my remarks by emphasising that the Consultative Committees would not represent the type of appointment from which Parliament usually excludes Members of this House. We must bear in mind that the Consultative Committees would not be responsible for any operation of these transport services. They would be representing the interests of the users, whether they are trading users or the general public. So, in this case, I have no doubt that I would be justified in proceeding along these lines, if this commends itself to Members of the House. It seems to me that the duties of a member of a Consultative Committee are very similar, in the broadest sense, to the duties of a Member of this House, namely to look after the interests of the State and of the public, and particularly of the public of the locality which he represents. In my submission this is a question for the consideration of the House.

§ Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe
I would like to give my personal view that I see no objection to this at all. I think that the main point which the Minister has made—and it is one of considerable importance—is that there may well be members of these Committees who have done good work and have gained experience in regard to the working of the Committees and who are then elected to this House. In these circumstances, I would be sorry to see the Committees deprived of such members. Looking at it from the point of view of this House, I do not think that appointment to such Committees in any way would lead to the sort of mischief that the legislation and rules against offices of profit have regard to. My own view, as the right hon. 1902 Gentleman knows, has always been that these Committees are not a strong enough support to the consumers' point of view. He and I discussed that matter in the Committee stage, and although we differed on it, he knows, I think, that I want to see these Committees strengthened. Therefore, as I do not think it comes within the evil from the point of view of this House, I hope it will not be too much for the modesty of members of this House if I say that it would strengthen the Committees to have the right to call upon Members of this House to serve upon them. I do not in any way object to the Amendment.

§ Major Peter Roberts (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
I rise only to refer to one sentence which the Minister used towards the end of his speech. It was that a member might be able to represent the locality from which he came. If that is the idea, I think it is dangerous. A Member of Parliament will be put on to a Committee in the capacity of a national servant; but if it is going to be suggested that he must represent his own locality, it might have the corollary that if he does not do so, he is not carrying out his job properly. That would be rather dangerous. I would not like it to go out from this House that there is any suggestion that hon. Members who may be put on to a Committee are to represent their localities in that work. I think it would be better for hon. Members to direct their activities to the higher authority of this House.
I do not think that it is really right and proper that an hon. Member of this House, as such, should be asked to serve on one of these, so to speak, "lower authorities." I have heard it said from both sides of this House, and especially from the other side, that Members of Parliament have a full time job, and plenty of work to do. I do not like the idea of putting further work on them. We have to remember that this is only one Bill. Nationalisation seems to be stretching far and wide, and hon. Members are going to be very busy on consultative committees of various kinds, and I do hope that the Minister will say he does not intend this.

§ Mr. Barnes
I thank hon. Members for drawing my attention to the careless wording. It is a careless use of the word "represent" and I should like to withdraw it.

§ Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe
I beg to move, in page 9, line 42, after "consider", to insert: and, where it appears to the Committee to he necessary, make recommendations in regard to. This Amendment is designed to strengthen the position of the Consultative Committees. I think that the Minister would agree that under Subsection (6) there is an implication that the Committees should make recommendations, but we feel that it ought to be made quite clear that there is a positive responsibility on the Committees to make recommendations. I am very anxious, as I have made clear, to do everything to strengthen the position of these Committees, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will accept this Amendment with that object in view.

§ Mr. Barnes
I am informed that this is an excellent piece of drafting on the part of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, and I am pleased to accept it.

§ Mr. G. R. Strauss
I beg to move, in page 10, line 19, to leave out from the second "the," to "with," in line 21, and to insert: Minister may give such directions to the Commission. This, and the following Amendment, are really consequential on a principle which I have already explained. There are other similar consequential ones, and I think that there is no need for me to explain them at this stage.

§ Mr. G. R. Strauss
I beg to move, in page 10, line 24, at the end, to insert: The Central Transport Consultative Committee shall make an annual report to the Minister, and the Minister shall lay a copy of that report before each House of Parliament. This carries out an undertaking given during the Committee stage that the Central Transport Consultative Committee should make an annual report to the Minister, who should lay a copy before both Houses of Parliament.

§ Mr. Barnes
I beg to move, in page 10, line 30, after "Committee," to insert: allowances in respect of any loss of remunerative time in accordance with a scale approved by the Minister and the Treasury and This Amendment will permit of payments to be made to the members of the Transport Users Consultative Committee for loss of time when serving on the Committee. I have indicated on more than one occasion that it is desirable that these Committees should be fully representative of the life and interests of their fellows. I feel the Minister should have the opportunity of drawing upon the services of anyone who can perform that function and that there should be no restriction on the area of choice by reason of the difficulty of any person whose livelihood or loss of wages might cause him to think twice before accepting such an appointment.