HC Deb 03 April 1947 vol 435 cc2290-301

3.22 p.m.

Squadron-Leader Kinghorn (Great Yarmouth)

The subject which I wish to broach is the appointment of the education officer to the deputy military governor to the British zone of Occupation in Germany. Some time ago an announcement of the appointment was made in this House, and it caused very little stir at the time, but for a comment by the hon. Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers) when he learned that the new education officer could not also carry on the job of head master of Charterhouse. I am not engaged in any personal attack upon this gentleman at all. He is a man of very great gifts, learning and educational experience, and of the highest integrity of character. Why I am interested is that I can claim, in a humble fashion, to have followed the events in Germany throughout the whole of my adult life.

I have studied their literature, educational system, politics and so on, and I hope that, from time to time, I may be able to say a word that may be useful to other hon. Members in this House. The other reason is that I believe that this Government in the last 18 months had been expected to tackle many of the great problems of the day in a different manner from the Governments which have preceded it. The education officer is a man of great integrity and educational achievement. He was educated at a famous public school—Rugby—and from there went as a Scholar to Balliol, Oxford, and became a prize man, and after his training he became assistant master at Eton. Until his appointment as educational adviser he was headmaster of another famous public school, Charter-house. With a training and experience in his profession of that kind, it seems to me that the highest pinnacles of achievement would be open to him and that he is the kind of man we might expect to see one day as headmaster of Eton or Harrow, and he would be a fitting choice for a distinction of that kind. His job in Germany is something quite different from that of the running and working of a public school in this country. For instance, he is to have full responsibility to advise the Deputy Military Governor on all aspects of educational life in Germany in all the-schools and universities, and in adult education. It is perfectly clear how important a job of that kind will be for the Germans and ourselves. He is, in other words, going to decide, for the rest of the lifetime to all of us here, whether our children are to face some recrudescence of Kaiserism or Nazism, if that educational system in Germany is not run in a proper, democratic and progressive manner.

The educational system in Germany is largely that of day schools. There are the primary schools, and my information is that very few of those are boarding schools. I believe that in the interwar years experiments were made by people who wanted to introduce certain aspects of the boarding system, but by and large the primary, and, indeed, the secondary schools are mainly day schools, and very few pupils attending that kind of school are living under the conditions of the public school boarding school system of this country. The same applies to the technical schools and certainly to the universities, which are probably more numerous in Germany than in this country. Many of them are much older, and their whole foundation was that the students attending them went to day institutions and lived in lodgings or at home; they were not residential universities, in the main. The running of that side of the general educational system would seem to me to call for not quite the kind of experience that would be gained in experience of the public school residential system in this country.

If we turn to our own country, we find that the greater part of our educational system is rather in line with the traditional German system. There are day schools, where most of the children in the country go until they are 14 years of age, and from this week until they are 15, or to the secondary schools—the local grammar schools and county secondary schools. Those attending them go in the daytime and then go home, which is all very similar to the German system. If we continue a little further, in provincial towns there is the counterpart, in our modern universities, of the university system in Germany. Then there is the adult educational system which many of us know very well, whereby workers, in their spare time, attend week night evening classes in our large industrial districts, through the work of big organisations like the Workers' Educational Association. That is the kind of organisation which the Educational Adviser in the British zone of Germany will have to look after when he goes there. It is a similar system to the one in this country, but it is not the system in which the new educational adviser has spent all his educational life, so far as I know.

I wish to turn to the field of choice which would have been open to anyone who wanted to appoint an educational adviser to the British zone. Based on the facts which I have given, we would find, for instance, quite a number of people in our country who have taken a German honours degree at a university and who have studied German affairs and German culture, who would be eminently suitable. There are others, no doubt, who are experienced over a wide field of our educational system, perhaps as teachers in primary schools and secondary schools, and who have also done work in adult education with the W.E.A., and have eventually landed in local education offices to become administrators. It is people of that kind who would be particularly suitable for this work in Germany. We know that there are quite a large number of people ranking as His Majesty's inspectors who are administrators of the first class and who know the whole educational system of this country, especially where it is similar to the German, and there is another large field there. Lastly, there are a great number of people in this country who have qualifications of that kind, and with experience of secondary schools or grammar schools, and possibly of adult educational work who possess just that experience similar to that which is needed in the men whom we send to Germany.

When I was in Germany last year as a member of the Parliamentary delegation, I had an opportunity to see some of the magnificent work being carried on there in the revival of the German educational system. I spoke to children in schools and youth clubs, and was most impressed by the work which is being done, not so much by the advisers at top level, but by the captains and majors who move about in the schools in Hanover and other places. A great deal of good work has been done there, and, if time permitted, I could say some nice things about these people to counter some of the criticisms which we have heard in this House. One does get the impression from the article in the Sunday newspaper the "Observer" that this job was given out on an old-school tie basis, rather than on the facts of experience and qualifications. Probably most of us have read that article, but we have to remember that this is the most responsible job in Europe today. The educational system of Germany must be handled so as to provide that a Hitler or a Kaiser cannot rise again, and it may be that the lives of people in this country may come to depend on that. In view of those facts, it seemed to me that perhaps a little greater care might have been given to the task of choosing the occupant of this vitally important post.

3.33 p.m.

Mr. Corlett (York)

Like the hon. Member who has just spoken, I am not concerned with particular individuals. Every educationist in this country is very well aware of the distinguished academic and teaching record of this particular gentleman and, what is more, of the very high esteem in which he is held as a man. I think that is possibly a more important qualification and I think that any Government that could secure the services of such a person is fortunate, but I think that, for this particular post, there are additional qualifications which are absolutely essential, and I am not quite certain that they are forthcoming.

I understand that the occupant of this post will be expected, in the words of the Minister, to inspire the German people to recast and remould their educational system on the lines of our own democratic State educational system. I should think that an absolutely necessary qualification for that work would be an intimate, day to day knowledge of our democratic, State educational system. In fact, I cannot see how anybody can expect to implant in such difficult soil as Germany our peculiarly democratic system unless he has complete knowledge of it. I was in Austria last year, and I made it my business to try to assess the value of our educational set-up there. I was completely satisfied that a very fine job of work was being done, and I said so to the Control Commission. I reported to the late Minister of Education to the same effect. I believe it was largely due to the fact that we had appointed there one of His Majesty's inspectors from our own Ministry of Education who was completely steeped in our democratic educational system as a teacher and administrator. He knew the snags and pitfalls. The success of his work was in the main due to the fact that he had that knowledge and experience.

Like the hon. and gallant Member for Great Yarmouth (Squadron-Leader Kinghorn), I am not at all certain if in this particular appointment this qualification is forthcoming. I only know that, like him, I read in the "Observer" that the particular gentleman whom he is going to advise has come from the same school. Whatever you or I may think of that, this will be cited as a classical instance of the power of the old-school tie on many platforms in this country. I would like to be assured on this particular point. The Ministry might say that although this gentleman has not this particular qualification, he has others which far outweigh the lack of it. I could quite accept that. In the case of one of our appointments under the Ministry of Education recently that has been proved, but I am not too sure that it can be true in the case of this appointment. If however the Minister tells me that all this gentleman's experience has been confined to public schools, I shall feel bound to doubt the wisdom of the appointment and for this reason.

Before the war a deputation, a physical training deputation, I think, went to Germany, and Hitler was asked if there was any part of our educational system which he admired. He said that only the public schools came near the Nazi ideal. He said that was because they were established as schools for leadership. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and not only did Hitler admire those schools but he set up a whole series of leadership schools in Germany culminating in three very large schools of 1,000 each in which were trained the future leaders of the Nazi system. I ask the Minister what the repercussions are likely to be on the incalculable German mind when the Germans realise that the appointment is from one of those particular schools that Hitler so much admired and not from one of the democratic schools which he did not admire? I do not know. The German youth with its mystic longing for leadership is difficult to understand. The German youth has been like that for 100 years, and the Nazis developed and encouraged this mystic longing for leadership.

I have been reading with very great interest a report on Germany by a delegation from the standing conference of national voluntary youth organisations. They are competent to assess what is being taught in Germany. They say that the mass of the young people are neither despondent nor hopeless but are waiting. They are malleable material for another fuhrer who will capture their imagination and take the lead. That is a dangerous situation. I was in Klagenfurt last year and remember the incident which led to the dismissal of the headmaster and staff of a school because of the revival of the same spirit of a desire for leadership.

Will the Minister assure the House that he investigated the field mentioned by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Great Yarmouth in which 5 million children are being educated? Did he try to secure the services of one of His Majesty's inspectors, one of the chief education officers or the head of one of our maintained grammar or modern schools? If he feels he must get someone from the public schools, which I doubt, he will find there are some most distinguished people who in addition to having public school experience have an intimate day to day working knowledge of what is going on in the democratic system. I would like the Minister to assure the House that he explored that field before making a selection from the very small undemocratic field which is concerned with such very few children.

3.39 p.m.

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. John Hynd)

May I say in passing that I am glad that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Yarmouth (Squadron-Leader Kinghorn) has been able to get his Debate in at last because I know that he has on two occasions had to postpone it? It is worth while that the general question should be raised, if not precisely in the form in which it was wished. I agree entirely with the hon. and gallant Member for Great Yarmouth that German education—we visualise it in the Control Commission as the re-education of Germany—is an entirely different problem from the running of an English public school. We regard the re-education of Germany as something going far beyond even schools of any kind. It is a matter which involves practically every aspect of our administration with all the repercussions of our policy upon the German mind and the German life. Whatever may be the distinction as between the task of re-education of Germany and the administration of a public school in this country, the question that is posed here is: Is the product of a public school suited for taking over the supervision of the task in Germany? The same question might have been addressed to me or whoever had been appointed.

The hon. Member for York (Mr. Corlett) asked whether I searched through the millions of products of elementary schools, the ranks of His Majesty's education inspectors, and so on, before I decided on this appointment. If I had appointed the product of an elementary school or a grammar school or some other type of parson, the same king of criticism could have been made, that this was not comparable with the task of the re-education of Germany. So I do not think that is quite valid. However, when it is suggested that this appointment has been made on an "old school tie" basis, as I thought the hon. and gallant Member for Yarmouth suggested, and charged me of all people with such a procedure, I must reject it at once. I assure the House that I take a personal responsibility for the appointment of Mr. Birley, and I selected him in the light of my conception of the work he had already done in the educational field, not only in the matter of public schools but on the results of certain researches that he had made into German education.

Squadron-Leader Kinghorn

We are very glad to hear that, because it will check any wrong sentiments that may have spread from the article "Profile" in the "Observer" last Sunday.

Mr. Hynd

I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that in this case, amongst others, I was entirely responsible for suggesting the person who was finally selected, and I did that on my own responsibility. I, above all people, am not one who is prejudiced by a public school training. My education was confined to seven years at an elementary school plus evening classes and copious reading. Therefore, I cannot be charged with "old school tie" sentiments. However, whatever may have been he restrictions on my educational opportunities, I do not for that reason despise those whose opportunities have offered them fuller education through college, public school or uni- versity. Their path has no doubt been easier, but that is no reason, so far as I can see, for refusing to utilise their experience and training, not only in the educational field proper, but in life in general. It is true that there are products of public schools who do not redound greatly to the credit of the system, just as there are products of the elementary school who are not exactly an advertisement for unrestricted educational opportunities. It seems to me, however, that this argument is somewhat academic—the argument that all elementary school products are eminently suitable and qualified to organise and administer education, or that anyone who has had a public school training is ipso facto unfitted for any form of administration outside a public school. I do not think that is anything more than a caricature of a rather naive kind.

Mr. Corlett

That was not our argument at all.

Mr. Hynd

No, but the argument as I gathered it was that, because Mr. Birley's educational background was that of a public school, and because of the association of the public school system in my hon. Friend's mind with Nazi ideology, for example, he was therefore not the type of person who should be considered. I feel that is the wrong approach, that we should be not so much concerned with the background of a person as with his achievements, either in the educational field or in the field of general administration, and with other evidences of general administrative capacity. Those are the only criteria upon which I considered this particular appointment.

I do not want to examine the public school system, but I think it is relevant to make one or two references to it. What is the criticism of the public school? It is that it is too conventionally restricted to one class of people, the richest in the community, and develops, as my hon. Friend the Member for Yarmouth said, the old school tie mentality. These charges have, or had undoubtedly some basis of justification, Indeed, they are referred to in a number of paragraphs in the Fleming Report, which I should like to cite. One paragraph says in reference to public schools: There were signs in the period before the last war that the public schools too readily imposed a conventional code on their members, and this development and intensification of the house spirit undoubtedly played a part. In a further paragraph the report says: It must be agreed that if this training was valuable, to confine it to those from a limited social class meant that it was impossible for many boys who would have gained from receiving it, and further this restriction was to some degree positively harmful as it upset the balance of educational experience which should be found in all classes in a democratic community. The interesting feature about these two paragraphs is that I understand they were written by Mr. Birley, who is the subject of this Debate, and sum up fairly well his understanding of the public school, and its relationship to our educational system. In regard to Mr. Birley's qualifications, I do not want to say more than I have said, except that he has an exceptionally good history of educational achievement. It has been suggested by my hon. Friends that, had he cared, he could probably have gone on to higher levels in that profession, and that is undoubtedly true. In fact it is an encouraging feature of this appointment that Mr. Birley had no hesitation, in view of his keen interest in Germany, and of his keen and wider interest in education and re-education in the much wider field than that of schools, since he could not be released from his present post, in giving up that post entirely. A comparatively young man, with such a career ahead of him, gave it up for the rather uncertain prospects of employment with the Control Commission, which I think is very much to his credit.

It should not be forgotten that he is not alone in our educational branch in Germany. We have in fact representatives of His Majesty's inspectorate on the staff. Reference has been made to the gentleman who is the immediate second to Mr. Birley, Mr. Riddy, who, until now, has been the head of our educational branch, and who has been responsible with his branch for some quite remarkable achievements in the reorganisation of German education. Mr. Riddy himself was one of His Majesty's inspectors of schools a post he held until seconded to the Control Commission as director of the education branch.

I will give some indication of what has been achieved. I have already made reference in the House to the difficult situation which we found in Germany at the beginning of the occupation, with the intellectualisation of the Germans over a period of 15 years and the tremendous destruction of school buildings, houses and so on and with the prevalence of Nazi teachers who had a monopoly control over the schools, the complete absence of acceptable textbooks, which made education an almost impossible task from the beginning. Since that time, we have reached the stage when no less than 99 per cent. of the eligible children in the British zone are now at school. It is true that 42 per cent. of them only attend half time due entirely to the shortage of teachers, shortage of accommodation and other factors, but 99 per cent. are attending school in present conditions which I think is a very remarkable achievement.

We are still faced with the tremendous problem of accommodation. In an overcrowded zone, where repairs to buildings are extremely difficult and the erection of new buildings impossible at present, that is one of the biggest problems to overcome. There are also the problem of heating the schools in winter and the problem of teachers. Probably the biggest difficulty is the provision of paper for textbooks and general educational purposes. In spite of the terrific stringency in regard to paper pulp in the zone, we have already provided 9,000,000 textbooks, starting from scratch. That is no slight achievement. Already there are 14,000 youth groups operating in the zone. We have organised school broadcasting. We are providing free meals for 1,700,000 children attending schools, an entirely new arrangement in Germany. Six universities in the British zone are operating, with no fewer than 23,000 students, which is more than ever occupied these universities before. We have done all this with an education branch of 160 education branch officers.

We are now approaching a new stage. We are now handing over most of the day-to-day work of education administration of schools and so on, to the German Land governments, because having made provision for the government of the German Lander by German governments it is proper, I think, that we should hand over responsibility to them. There may be mistakes, and it may be a slow process. Handing over the responsibility to Germans has led to a certain amount of inefficiency, but they cannot learn to administer unless they have the opportunity of doing so. Accordingly, we have reorganised our education branch, and are concentrating its endeavours on a much wider field. Some of the administration is centring on Berlin, but that does not mean that we are disposing of the whole of the zonal administration. Of the total headquarters staff of 34 officers, 16 will go to Berlin, and 18 will remain in the zone. They will have direct responsibility to the Regional Commissioners, who will have direct supervision over the activities of the Land governments.

That is the new trend in the British zone, and it is for the purpose of coordinating, not only the activities of the schools and supervising the activities of the German Governments and Ministers of Education, but also for bringing into the re-educational picture all the other factors in Germany, whether it be youth activities, youth organisations, adult education, or even the political aspects of our policy—bringing them within the field of re-education of Germany and acting as direct advisers to the Commander-in-Chief and the heads of every division in the Control Commission. It is necessary that we should have this co-ordination with a direct head who has had experience of, and has a strong interest in, these matters, which has certainly been shown by Mr. Birley. I believe that these developments, the achievements that have already been made by this small group of officers, are a tribute to their capacity—a tribute which I was glad to receive from the hon. and gallant Member for Yarmouth—and I feel, too, that the new developments and the re-adjustment of our establishment and methods will make a real contribution to planning German education and re-education in the widest sense.