HC Deb 13 November 1946 vol 430 cc87-91
The Parliamentary and Financial Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. John Dugdale)

I should like with your permission, Sir, and the permission of the House, to make a statement concerning the condition of the vessels in which attempts are being made to convey illegal immigrants into Palestine. In view of the frequency with which these ships are arriving, my noble Friend is anxious that the perils to which would-be illegal immigrants are being exposed by their sponsors should be as widely known as possible. Many of the ships used for this traffic are found to be in the highest degree unseaworthy, and they are all overcrowded to the point of danger. In bad weather, such as must be expected in these waters during the winter, the risk of foundering or capsizing is seriously increased.

As an example, I would draw the House's attention to the "San Demetrio," which arrived in Palestine waters on 1st November, carrying 1,400 illegal immigrants. Her steering was very erratic and her roll was so heavy that she remained hanging at an angle of 20, and sometimes 30 degrees. She was so unstable and so overcrowded that she was able twice to roll over to the same angle on the other side simply by moving passengers from one side of the ship to the other. Even in the conditions obtaining at the time, the "San Demetrio" was extremely lucky to reach port in this state; a sudden deterioration in the weather would assuredly have made her capsize.

The Royal Navy has the unenviable task of going alongside, boarding and arresting these ships under way. Every care is taken to avoid damage and danger to the ships, but it is impossible to guarantee that a serious accident may not occur for which His Majesty's Government can accept no responsibility. Indeed, responsibility must rest on those who endanger the lives of the people whom they persuade to embark on these extremely hazardous journeys.

Mr. Oliver Stanley

Is the hon. Gentleman in a position to tell the House who are the people responsible for what all of us agree is a monstrous hazarding of men's lives; and can he also tell us from what country they are drawing the financial support which must be necessary to enable this kind of traffic to go on?

Mr. Dugdale

No, Sir. That is obviously a question that should be addressed, as I am sure the right hon. Gentleman realises, to the Colonial Office. I am concerned with one thing, and one thing only, and that is the protection of our sailors, who are engaged in a hazardous operation; and with that and with that alone.

Mr. W. J. Brown

Would not the quickest way of stopping this business, which does involve danger to British lives, as the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty said, be to make it known that the Navy would commandeer every ship engaged in it, and not return it? Once that was well known, I think there would be very few ships engaged in this traffic.

Mr. Dugdale

That is quite another matter.

Sir Stanley Reed

Can the hon. Gentleman inform the House from what port this ship sailed, under which flag, and who owned it?

Mr. Dugdale

It is very difficult to secure any adequate knowledge about this particular ship, the "San Demetrio," because it has changed its name so many times. I asked about the tonnage of it, and it is very difficult to secure information even about that. But we have, in fact, had 14 ships in the last six months, and this position has occurred with regard to other ships, as well as the "San Demetrio."

Mr. Stokes

May I ask my hon. Friend who chartered the ship, quite apart from who owned it? Presumably the Admiralty must know who chartered it.

Mr. Dugdale

I am afraid I cannot answer that question without notice.

Mr. Sydney Silverman

Would my hon. Friend convey to his colleagues in the Government the dangers to which these immigrants are exposed in these ships— dangers which they are prepared to run— so that they may understand exactly what it is from which they are seeking to escape?

Mr. Dugdale

That question should be addressed to another Department.

Mr. Churchill

Could we have an answer to the question as to what flag it was sailing under?

Mr. Dugdale

I am afraid I cannot answer it now, but I will answer it if a Question is put down.

Mr. Churchill

How is it possible for one of His Majesty's ships to approach another ship at very close quarters and not be able to discern the pattern of the flag which that ship is wearing?

Mr. Dugdale

I am perfectly willing to admit that this is my fault and that I should have been able to answer that question, but I am afraid I cannot, and that is all I can say.

Mr. Churchill

Do I understand that the hon. Gentleman said he cannot because he has not got the information with him, and not that there is any serious reason against it?

Mr. Dugdale

That is right.

Mr. Churchill

Will the hon. Gentleman give the information?

Mr. Dugdale

Certainly.

Sir S. Reed

I do not wish to press the hon. Gentleman, but can he tell the House from what port this ship sailed, who gave her clearance, and who are the registered owners, and if he is not able to give that information today will he be so good as to give it to the House at the earliest possible opportunity?

Mr. Dugdale

Certainly, Sir, but I do want to impress upon the House the fact that I am not specifically concerned with this particular ship. I simply gave it as an example. There are many other ships which place the people in them in a very hazardous position; it is not only this ship which is our concern today.

Sir Waldron Smithers

May I ask the hon. Gentleman if he has had the advantage of seeing the depositions which have been sent to several Government Departments, and can he confirm or deny the allegation that these ships have been victualled by U.N.R.R.A.?

Mr. Dugdale

I am not in a position to confirm or deny that allegation, but I should have thought that it was highly improbable.

Sir W. Smithers

I know that it is true.

Mr. Scollan

Is there any reason whatever why this House should not get a report on the whole system of organisation of this traffic; and what is behind the whole scheme of sending these people in coffin ships, unless, obviously, it is for the purpose of one of them foundering and creating sympathy and giving rise to an incident?

Mr. Dugdale

I think a Question will have to be put down on that. It might be possible to answer it if it were.

Sir Ronald Ross

Can the Minister give any instances of flags under which any of these ships have sailed?

Mr. Dugdale

Not without notice, but with notice I will answer in very great detail.

Mr. Jennings

In view of the fact that the hon. Gentleman's statement was very largely what was published in the Press, does not he realise that the supplementary questions were such as he should have expected, as for instance the question about the flag, and that these matters are very important? Will he see that these matters are given full publicity at the earliest opportunity?

Mr. Dugdale

I have already admitted that I might very well have been able to answer the question about the flag, but I think it is primarily a question which concerns the Colonial Office.

Mr. Jennings

Nonsense.

Mr. Dugdale

Whatever flags the ships sail under, the fact is that they are in a dangerous condition, and I want to emphasise that fact to anybody, of whatever country, under whatever flag, who sends any ships there in future.

Mr. Churchill

May I press this point about the flag? I understand that the hon Gentleman can quite easily ascertain the answer to that question, and in the event of its being decided by the Prime Minister or the Leader of the House that that question had better be answered by the Colonial Office, we shall make no objection to it, but we think that this simple point about the flag should be cleared up at the earliest opportunity.

Mr. Cobb

Would not my hon. Friend agree that questions relating to merchant vessels should more properly be put down to the Minister of War Transport?

Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite

May I ask the Financial Secretary a question which I am sure he will be able to answer? Is he aware that in the whole of this disagreeable business the general public greatly admire the tact and patience shown by naval officers and ratings under great provocation?

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

We have a lot of business before us today, and I think we might now get on.