HC Deb 30 May 1946 vol 423 cc1337-44
52. Mr. James Callaghan

asked the Minister of "Labour if he will now make a statement on the future of the National Service Acts.

53. Lieutenant Herbert Hughes

asked the Minister of Labour if he is now in a position to state the future policy of His Majesty's Government concerning conscription.

The Minister of Labour (Mr. Isaacs)

I will ask my hon. Friends to await the statement which I propose to make at the end of Questions today.

Later—

Mr. Isaacs

The Government have given very careful consideration to the important question of call-up for the Forces in the immediate future. Many of the factors are still uncertain, especially the extent of our future responsibilities in the field of foreign affairs, but the Government consider that young men reaching the age of 18 can no longer be kept in suspense regarding their call-up. They have accordingly decided that as a transitional measure young men called up during 1947 and 1948 shall serve for a fixed period. Those called up during 1947 will serve for two years, and if no unforeseen circumstances arise this period will be progressively reduced for those called up during 1948. Thus men whose service begins in January, 1948, will serve for two years and those whose service begins in December, 1948, will serve for 18 months.

As by the end of 1946 all fit men between 18 and 30 years of age still in civil life will be in work from which they cannot be spared if essential production and services are to be maintained, the call-up to the Forces in 1947 and 1948 will, with certain exceptions, be confined to men reaching the age of 18 in those years. It is possible that a few men over the age of 18 whose call-up has been deferred may cease to be employed on the work for which they were deferred. In such cases they will be found equally important work. The number will in any, case be negligible and to call them up could not have any effect on the rate of release of those already serving in the Forces.

Deferments on industrial grounds will cease to be granted after the end of 1946, except that in 1947, and later if necessary, call-up may be deferred as at present in the case of men employed in coalmining, agriculture, building and the production of certain building materials.

The Government have been concerned to ensure that apprentices and learners receive a proper and thorough training. With this end in view they have decided that deferment may be granted to young men to complete their training where my Department, through the machinery of the Manpower Boards, is satisfied that a genuine and satisfactory apprenticeship exists. Others in a similar position to apprentices will be treated in the same way.

Men already serving in the Forces at 31st December, 1946, will be released according to the existing age and length of service scheme. All such men will be released before the end of 1948, that is, before any of the men called up in 1947 are released. Moreover, the Government will aim at releasing during 1947 all men called up before 1st January, 1944.

In order to lessen the needs of the Services for men, it has been decided to call for recruits for the Women's Auxiliary Services to volunteer for a period of not less than two years. It has also been decided to continue the W.R.N.S., the A.T.S., and the W.A.A.F. on a voluntary basis as permanent features of the Forces of the Crown.

The Government have endeavoured to make the scheme as flexible as possible in order to allow for the many uncertain factors arid to enable adjustments to be made in either direction if unforeseen developments should arise. A White Paper setting out the proposals more fully is now available in the Vote Office.

Mr. Churchill

Can the right hon. Gentleman give any forecast or estimate of the numbers of young men who will reach the age of 18 in the years 1947 and 1948? That must be available from the population statistics.

Mr. Isaacs

If the right hon. Gentleman would permit me, may I put it this way —that after allowing for any volunteers and for deferments and the unfit, the number estimated to be called up in each year is 190,000.

Mr. Callaghan

May I ask whether we can take it that educational and welfare facilities in the Forces will be pressed on with as much as possible during this period?

Mr. Isaacs

I am very pleased to be able to say that the Service Departments have very readily agreed to extend and develop as much as possible educational facilities. Especially we shall make it a feature in the women's Forces that, in addition to having their general service training, they will receive training such as typewriting and so on which will enable them to be useful members of the community after their service.

Mr. R. A. Butter

Can the right hon. Gentleman add to his statement by saying whether university students, those who are specialised scholars, and others will be included in the term " learners " and treated as apprentices; and can he say whether apprentices and those whose service is deferred will be able to put in any part of their service during the apprenticeship and so not have to serve the full period afterwards?

Mr. Isaacs

With reference to students, I think I might direct attention to paragraphs 10, n and 12 of the White Paper. The arrangement for this year is as announced on 30th April. Definite arrangements have not been made for next year, but it is hoped to make the same arrangements. The term " apprentices " covers learners and others who are taking a technical education as well as apprentices. As to their taking some training during that period, for the time being it has been decided to continue these present arrangements and not to make deferments conditional on something else, otherwise men deferred on some grounds would be expected to take some training and men deferred on other grounds would not.

Mr. Rhys Davies

In view of the momentous declaration made by the Minister of Labour and the fact that some of us expected this Government to abolish conscription, at any rate 12 months after the end of the war, is it intended that the Government should bring a Motion before the House for debate so that the House can vote on this very important question of extending military conscription in this country for another three and a half to four years?

Mr. Isaacs

The question of debate is not a matter for me, but as to this extended conscription for three and a half to four years, this relates only to the end of 1948. I have already indicated that it is an interim decision. This does not apply to any longer period.

Mr. Henry Strauss

May I ask whether the Minister can supplement his statement in two respects? Since the maximum new period for conscription is two years, could the Minister give an assurance that young men and women already conscribed in the Forces will not be held for periods greatly in excess of that, and, in particular, that those accepted for a university course will not be held beyond the third September after enlistment?

Mr. Isaacs

All we can do is to express hopes in the matter because of the uncertain factors on which the decision has to be made, but it is hoped, as I have said, to get everybody out who is now in before the first of these others come out, and that it may not be necessary to extend this period of service. Some indication is given of the hopes of the Government in this matter by having started with a two year period. Before that period comes to an end it will, in fact, have been reduced to 18 months.

Mr. Churchill

When the right hon. Gentleman said that university students would be treated in the same way as apprentices, subject to the limiting words he used, "If employed in technical studies,"I presume that does not exclude other forms of university education apart from the purely technical?

Mr. Isaacs

No; what I wanted to convey was that in addition to the arrangement already made for students, those lads who are not students in the ordinary sense, who have not become apprentices but are going to a technical school, having technical education, will be given the same cover. It is an extension and not a restriction.

Lieut.-Colonel Lipton

Is any provision being made for some revision in the rates of pay of the Women's Auxiliary Services, all of which have been completely left out in recent statements on that subject?

Mr. Isaacs

Yes, that matter is under consideration.

Viscount Hinchingbrooke

Will the right hon. Gentleman make it clear whether there has been any change in policy with regard to men whose wartime reserved occupations have come to an end? I think he said they would now be found alternative work. Would not it be most undesirable that they should not be called up for military service unless on essential work?

Mr. Isaacs

No, the point is that, just as it was necessary to reserve these men when the country's need for fighting men was so very acute because they were of such value to industry, so today they are still of great value to industry, and it will be the purpose of the Ministry of Labour to ensure that they take on their proper work and go on to work in essential industry. I think it will be found that there is sufficient latitude here so that if they do not play the game it will still be possible to capture them.

Mr. Wilkins

Will the Minister say whether, if the present drive for voluntary recruitment into the Services is successful, this proposal will be subject to revision?

Mr. Isaacs

Not this side of the proposal, but if the voluntary recruiting scheme which will be put on foot very soon is successful to the extent that it brings in more than we anticipate, that will be used to release more of these men who have already served and not to reduce the numbers called up.

Mr. Grimston

In operating this scheme in the transitional period, will a deferred student or apprentice, when called up, serve for the period that is in force at the date of his calling up, or will he have to serve for the period which was in force when he would have been called up if he had not been deferred?

Mr. Isaacs

The hon. Gentleman has made himself clear, but I must admit that he has caught us out on something about which I cannot give an actual answer, but I think the commonsense of the thing would be that, having regard to the date of deferment, he would be called up under conditions appropriate to the time when he is called up.

Mr. Swingler

Did I understand the Minister to say that there would be no general deferment of apprentices in the engineering trades except in special cases? Does he realise the serious position of apprentices in the engineering trades? May I at the same time ask the Leader of the House whether there will be an early opportunity of debating this subject?

Mr. Isaacs

It is very difficult, I know, for Members to follow this, not having seen the White Paper, but apprentices in the engineering trade, as apprentices, will have their right of deferment. They will be deferred as apprentices and not as engineers. This deferment applies to everybody but the trades I mentioned where deferment now applies to industries and not to apprentices.

Lieut.-Colonel Byers

Will the Government do everything possible further to improve the conditions of pay and the general conditions of service in the Armed Forces, so that we may get the maximum number of people by voluntary recruitment, and thus do away with conscription eventually?

Mr. Isaacs

It is within my recollection, I think, that quite recently there was considerable improvement made in pay and conditions of service.

Mr. Stephen

Will the Leader of the House give an opportunity to discuss this matter on the Motion in the names of the hon. Members for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) and Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) and myself on this matter?

[That this House calls upon the Government to make an early declaration concerning the ending of compulsory military service, which was alleged to have been imposed upon the people of this country in a grave emergency in order to defeat the forces of Hitlerism; is of the opinion that, as this aim has been accomplished, the people of Great Britain are desirous of returning to prewar freedom; considers that it would be a betrayal of the living and dead if conscription should be maintained, and, if the Government is in any doubt about public opinion, calls for the submission of the matter to a referendum of the people.]

This would provide an opportunity for discussing the White Paper.

The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison)

I think it would be more convenient if I dealt with the question when we reach the Business of the House.

Mr. Churchill

May I ask the Leader of the House whether he has any statement to make on the Business for next week?

Mr. Piratin

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. May I draw your attention to the fact that I and others have not yet asked our questions?

Mr. Speaker

Not everyone who gets up is called.

Mr. Piratin

With respect, Mr. Speaker, I was up.

Mr. Speaker

As the hon. Member represents a small party, I will allow one supplementary question.

Mr. Piratin

Thank you, Sir. I want to ask two questions within the one supplementary. First, would the Minister ensure to his very utmost that young men who are called up for the Services shall be put into such sections as to be able to continue their trade, a thing which is not operating to its full extent just now? Second, would he make a statement, either now or later, about the call-up for some form of national service of those young men who have not passed the medical examination for the Army or other such Service?

Mr. Isaacs

With reference to the second part of that supplementary question, I do not think it quite arises out of this statement. I am dealing only with the call-up for the Services. With reference to the first part of the supplementary, I did, in some way, refer to it earlier, but every effort will be made to give a young man the right to express a preference for the Service of his own choosing and to get him there if possible. If he is a tradesman and goes into a Service where that trade can be used, provided there is a vacancy, it is the intention of the Services to put him to that trade. We are very anxious for those who do not take their deferment to make the best possible use of studying their trade while in the Services.

Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore

Further to that point of Order, Mr. Speaker, the one Army which has not been mentioned is the Women's Land Army.

Mr. Speaker

I allowed one suppletary and no more.

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