CLAUSE 22.—(Death grant.) (Hansard, 29 May 1946)

§ The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of National Insurance (Mr. Lindgren)
I beg to move, in page 23, line 33, to leave out from " any,"To "or,"In line 35, and to insert: body corporate or to any unincorporated association of persons. With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I would refer also to the next Amendment on the Order Paper, namely, in page 23, line 36, after " such,"Insert, " body or."The two are interdependent. As the Bill reads, the death grant will not be payable to any charitable or other association of persons whether corporate, or unincorporate, or to a local authority. The result of the Amendment will be that the Clause will read: A death grant shall not be payable to any body corporate or to any unincorporated association of persons. That, we feel, is a much better form of words than that previously used.

§ Mr. Hugh Molson (The High Peak)
I should like to express my indebtedness, and that of my hon. Friends, to the Minister for having carried out the under taking which he gave us on the Committee stage. I fully understand why it was necessary for there to be certain safeguards which were not included in the Amendment which we moved upstairs and I think, generally speaking; that the Amendment which the Parliamentary Secretary has just moved is entirely satisfactory, both in so far as it covers local authorities and also voluntary bodies of various kinds which, in a charitable way, take aged people into their homes. However, there are two points in connection with this, on which I should like to ask a question—

§ Mr. Lindgren
If I may interrupt the hon. Gentleman, I think he is just a little ahead, and that the remarks he is now making will be more appropriate on the Amendment to this Clause which seeks to add the following words to line 36: 1180 (5) The cost, to such amount as may be prescribed, of the burial or cremation of any person by or under the direction of the council of a county or county borough, or by or under the direction of any such other association of persons as may be approved by the Minister may be paid to the council or association out of the National Insurance Fund if—
(a) the conditions for the payment of a death grant in respect of the said person's death are satisfied so far as relates to paragraph (b) of Subsection (1) and Subsection (3) of this Section; and

(b) no such death grant has been paid;
and where any sum is paid under this Subsection in respect of any person's burial or cremation any death grant subsequently paid in respect of his death shall be reduced by the amount of the said sum.

§ Mr. Molson
I understood, Mr. Speaker, that we were considering the first three Amendments together.

§ Mr. Lindgren
No, the first two.

§ Mr. Charles Williams (Torquay)
Then, if we are taking these two Amendments together, may I point out—although I quite realise that the hon. Member for The High Peak (Mr. Molson) is pleased with this Amendment—that the Parliamentary Secretary read it out, but did not tell us precisely why the Government had accepted the change. I understand it is a good change because it is a change which the Opposition wanted, but we are entitled to know what the Amendment does, and how it affects both corporate and unincorporated bodies.

§ Mr. Lindgren
If the hon. Gentleman waits until we reach, the third Amendment, he will get the information he now desires. This form of words has been used because of the subsequent Amendment and we feel, from a drafting point of view, it is better phraseology than that which was originally in the Bill. Its effect is exactly the same, but it is a change of words which we feel is better for the purpose of the Bill.

§ Mr. Lindgren
I beg to move, in page 23, line 36, at the end, to insert: (5) The cost, to such amount as may be prescribed, of the burial or cremation of any person by or under the direction of the council of a county or county borough, or by or under the direction of any such other association of persons as may be approved by the Minister may be paid to the council or asso- 1181 ciation out of the National Insurance Fund if—
(a)the conditions for the payment of a death grant in respect of the said person's death are satisfied so far as relates to paragraph (b) of Subsection (1) and Subsection (3) of this Section; and

(b) no such death grant has been paid;
and where any sum is paid under this Subsection in respect of any person's burial or cremation any death grant subsequently paid in respect of his death shall be reduced by the amount of the said sum. In Committee, the hon. Member for Hitchin (Mr. Asterley Jones) placed an Amendment on the Order Paper, which, in its general intention was supported from all sides. On behalf of my right hon. Friend, I gave an undertaking that between the Committee and Report stages we would consider the matter and see whether or not we could give effect to the general desire of the Committee. This Amendment does in fact meet the promise which was made. It is to the effect that where there is the necessity of a burial of a person, either by a local authority or by an approved association, the cost of that funeral up to a prescribed amount shall be met from the death grant and if subsequently someone makes a claim, such sums as have been paid out either to the local authority or the association will be deducted from the death grant which was due. I call attention to the fact that the associations, which will be entitled to receive this, have to be approved by the Minister. I am certain that hon. Members will agree this provision is advisable, and I hope the Amendment will meet with the general approval of the House.

§ Mr. Molson
I will not repeat what I said earlier when I thought that this Amendment was being moved, but I will proceed to ask three questions about the drafting. The Parliamentary Secretary will remember that I put down an Amendment to insert the word " cremation "In this Clause. The hon. Gentleman took the view that there was no need for that Amendment as "cremation" was included in "funeral."I observe that in the Amendment he is now moving the word "cremation" appears as an alternative to "burial." He cannot be right in both cases. Either it was not necessary to add the word "cremation"To the Clause as originally drafted—although I think it would have been desirable—or it is undesirable that the word " crema- 1182 tion" should be included in this case. Not only would it in that event be redundant, but any learned judge would imagine that Parliament in its wisdom had sought to draw a distinction between the disposal of bodies by ordinary funerals, and cremation by these bodies, corporate or unincorporated. The hon. Gentleman has gone slightly adrift with his drafting. I hope that at a subsequent stage he will include the word "cremation" as I proposed earlier. I believe it would have been better to have included it all along. I also ask whether he is quite satisfied with the propriety of the word "person in the phrase: burial or cremation of any person. I should have thought a "person" was only a living person, and that the word should not be used in this sense, unless there is to be burial alive.

§ Mr. C. Williams
May I venture to add a word on this rather difficult subject? For all I know this may be the first time the word " cremation " has appeared in a Measure of this kind, and the matter may not have been properly decided so far as the courts are concerned. Nor may it have been decided what the term actually means and how far it carries. It may possibly have a different meaning in Scottish law. An entirely new ruling might be given on the matter. My hon. Friend the Member for The High Peak (Mr. Molson) cast doubts on the Government's use of the term, and his knowledge of these matters is of an extraordinarily high character. I was rather aghast at the use of the word "person," because it seems to me that as my hon. Friend says it can only refer to a living human being. But the word may appear in other Acts in this way. If so it is time that it was put right. It may be another Government slip which should be dealt with between now and another stage. The Parliamentary Secretary told me just now that he was going to explain all these matters. I shall have extreme pleasure on some occasion in reading out his explanation, to show how really muddled the Government can be when they set their minds to it.

§ Mr. Lindgren
I doubt whether I could have given the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) an answer which would have prevented the speech he has jus made. In answer to the hon. Member 1183 for The High Peak (Mr. Molson), originally the word "funeral" was used. I am not an expert in English, but I understand that "funeral"Includes the disposal of the body by cremation, but that "burial" does not include disposal of the body by cremation. Therefore, as on this occasion we used the word "burial," we thought it advisable to use the word "cremation" because it is the intention of my right hon. Friend that the disposal of the body either by the normal way of burial, or the more scientific and up-to-date method of cremation, should be included.

§ Mr. E. P. Smith (Ashford)
Could the Parliamentary Secretary meet the objection raised by the hon. Member for The High Peak (Mr. Molson) by altering the wording to: burial or cremation of any body