HC Deb 24 May 1946 vol 423 cc790-800

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Mr. R. J. Taylor.]

3.59 P.m.

Mr. Dodds-Parker (Banbury)

Despite some of the views expressed from some of the Government back benches today, it is quite likely that for a number of years to come there will be a number of people in this country who will be employed in Government service overseas. For example, I was very glad to hear the Foreign Secretary refer to the Rockefeller Institute and the work which it has done in Egypt and the Middle East in particular. I have come across evidence of the good work of that Institute, for which I have the highest admiration, and I hope very much that we may be able to provide personnel in order to assist in the tremendous undertakings in world wide re search which it does. I am convinced myself that, for a number of years ahead as many years as we can look ahead, we have a very considerable part to play—

It being Four o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Captain Michael Stewart.]

Mr. Dodds-Parker

I was saying that we have a considerable part in the development of certain territories and for maintaining contact with other parts of the world, but, more than ever, we shall need " quality " personnel. I think the numbers may decrease—obviously, they will decrease as time goes on—but we must ensure that we have the best possible quality, and, in particular, this holds good for the Colonial territories. When speaking to an American with considerable experience in these matters, I was told that he believed that the Colonial Empire still offers one of the few remaining opportunities for a full man's life in this world. I have had a certain amount to do in the last 10 years with the selection of personnel to take service overseas, and the question most frequently asked, particularly towards the end of the war, was— " What are the conditions of leave?"It was not so much a question of rates of pay and conditions of work. It was rather the question, " Are we going to get home as often as possible?"To a young man lour years away in East or West Africa, which was the prewar system, seems particularly anxious about leave. Later, and particularly if the man can have a wife and family with him overseas, the urgent wish to come home so frequently is less, and then if other circumstances allow, leave may be taken less frequently.

There are two other considerations to take into account, and they concern the men's mental and physical balance. It is found that a long period "In the long grass "In the tropics produces a lowering and debilitating effect, and I hope the Under-Secretary for the Colonial Office will take notice of this, as he will undoubtedly find, as I have found in the last few years, that certain high officials and officers who have served abroad will reply, "I have been abroad 17 years and only had three leaves in all that time, and what is wrong with me? "I would suggest to the Minister that only somebody as sufficiently socially secure as the Under-Secretary of State could give an adequate reply. The most important point, perhaps, is in economy of staff. In these days, aircraft will bring personnel in two days, instead of three or four weeks, from East and West Africa. There is perhaps a greater contrast in saving of time for those coming home from the Far East, and I believe that soon there may be a service from the Antipodes bringing them back in three or four days. The saving of time is very considerable, and this time is paid for by the Government. For example, again, shorter annual leave to men in the service in Nigeria may enable a man to fly home, take his leave and go back to the same station. The present system is that he leaves his station after 18 months or so, has five months' leave at home and goes back to another station, and so, while he is away, somebody else has to take on his job. If this period was reduced to some weeks a year, it would effect a considerable economy in staff, as opportunity could probably be taken of slacker periods, for example during the rains, to enable leave to be taken without replacement, as is done in the Sudan.

The suggestion I make, therefore, is that the annual leave given to all personnel from this country and in all the Dominions should be taken at home. Such a suggestion would not be possible except for air transport facilities which are now available and which, since the war, are on a very much larger scale than was envisaged before. I would like to point out that before the war there was one service, the Empire Air Mail scheme, started in 1934. This was years ahead of anything set up by any other country, and the service carried all first-class air mail matter without any surcharge. I suggest that this system should be adopted for the carrying of personnel, as an assistance for the air transport company to plan ahead. The airmail scheme enabled the air transport company concerned to base a plan on a set figure of so many tons to be carried and incidentally to build a fleet of C. Class aircraft which have performed the most outstanding service of all our civil aircraft types to date. I suggest that every Government office with personnel overseas should make it a rule that "their personnel should have annual leave and that they should inform the air transport company concerned what accommodation is required so that the transport company could base their plans on a firm figure of personnel to be carried in the course of the year.

I believe that the Colonial Office are already envisaging such action. In the past few years I have found that there is general agreement on this scheme, but that there was no one department to coordinate,the requirements of the different departments concerned. It is not only the Colonial Office, but also the Foreign Office, Service Departments and other British departments not directly under His Majesty's Government, such as the Sudan Government, which already, incidentally, has an annual leave arrangement. I would ask the Under-Secretary of State to undertake such coordination himself and to approach whatever department is concerned—it is the Treasury, I believe—and to get them to ask all other departments concerned to accept annual leave in principle and so make plans to help our civil aviation to develop accordingly

4.8 p.m.

Air-Commodore Harvey (Macclesfield)

I shall be very brief in offering a few remarks to the House. I lived in a Crown Colony for several years and would like to make one or two observations. I am pleased to support my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Dodds-Parker) for raising this subject. I believe that everything must be done to get the right type of man in our Crown Colonies. I have seen the machinery at work and have always thought that, although, in some respects, such individuals are well off and have a sheltered life, in other respects their life is a most difficult one. What has impressed me most is the fact that when their children are six or seven years of age they have to say " Goodbye "To them. The children cannot remain in a humid climate and have to be sent home.

Times have changed even during the war years, so far as aviation is concerned. In the near future, it will be possible to receive letters from, and for passengers to travel from this country to, Hong Kong in a matter of two or three days. That offers an enormous scope and whereas Colonial servants in the past have served for three or four years overseas with, perhaps, a local holiday in a more temperate climate, it should now be possible to bring in a scheme whereby they will only serve 18 months at a stretch. That should be the absolute maximum, not only from the point of view of their health, but in order to keep them in touch with what is going on at home. After all, the Colonial Service assists this country and should stimulate trade in both directions. I have always thought that the Colonial servants, up to a point, rather discouraged trade and do not show sufficient interest in this direction. They have been much more concerned with other matters, such as better living conditions for the people. This, of course, is right and proper, but not enough. We all appreciate that it will take time to build up scheduled air services, but I ask the Minister to give every consideration to this problem and discuss it with his colleagues to ensure that these people get home leave of not less than every 18 months.

4.10 p.m.

Mr. Walkden (Doncaster)

My reason for speaking in this Debate is, possibly, a very minor one, but I am certainly in disagreement with the view that has just been expressed. Not that I think our servants in the Crown Colonies should not have leave; I do not argue against an 18 months period or a 12 months period, and I have a particular regard for those serving in places like the Sudan and in climates and foul conditions which affect the health of those upon whom we depend very considerably for guidance in carrying out the job which has been known in the past as the job of Empire. But I particularly noticed that the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Dodds-Parker) suggested that we should include the cost involved as a charge on the Estimates and that we should give it as a condition of service. He went on to argue that the world was so small, bearing in mind air transport and all the things that have happened in recent years, that we now do not have to estimate how many thousand miles away a certain place is, but how many hours away. But let us be quite fair about this. If the world is so small as a result of the speeding up in air travel, should we not bear in mind that there are also in Britain thousands of servants or the Crown. We do not pay their railway fares when they want to move their wives and families about nowadays. We did during the war by reason of an extraordinary circumstance, but if it is to be a condition of service that every man in the Colonial Service is to be guaranteed that he, his wife and family are to be pro- vided with air transport at the expense of the State, I would like to know when that policy was proposed by the Tory Party in the past.

Mr. Dodds-Parker

I think the hon. Member will find that that already holds good in the Colonial Service. Individuals already get their passages paid home, but it is at three- or four-yearly intervals and not, as I suggest, every year.

Mr. Walkden

I know certain conditions do apply. I believe it is every two years, as a matter of fact. But the hon. Gentleman argued—and I hope I did not misunderstand his case—that they should be given free passage for themselves, their -wives and families every 12 months. Then he altered it to 18 months, and I believe the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Macclesfield (Air-Commodore Harvey) also suggested it. We ought to look afresh at this question if this World of ours is so small. Service under the Crown may mean serving in London, Blackpool, Aden, the Sudan or Singapore, and we ought to have a proper understanding and pay regard to the circumstances under which men and women serve. I believe, for instance, that we call some stations " double leave" stations. There should be a clear understanding. We shall have to move families from London to Newcastle where the National Insurance Department is going, and it is only reasonable to say that if we are to make allowances for one section, we must make allowances on a general basis for all the servants of the Crown. I would be favourable to having a new charter for the Colonial Service, and a new understanding, but I am afraid I cannot agree that we should single out merely the Colonial Service simply leaving them as they are in one section, without any regard or consideration to free travel at Government expense when they take their annual leave. That is the point of substance I wish to raise.

Air-Commodore Harvey

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that the health of the people is affected? Individuals who live in this country are living in a temperate climate. My suggestion was they should come back every 18 months instead of every three or four years, though I did not develop that point.

Mr. Walkden

On grounds of health 0r compassion, I would certainly never disagree with that contention.

4.16 p.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Creech Jones)

We are grateful to the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Dodds-Parker) for raising this matter, because for some time it has received a great deal of attention in connection with all our services overseas. The discussion obviously ranges over a fairly wide field. The services concerned with the Foreign Office, India, Burma, as well as the Colonies, are all involved. Because of the limitations of time I had better confine myself to the rather limited field which the hon. Gentleman the Member for Banbury mentioned, namely, the field of the Colonies. The first difficulty with which one is confronted in dealing with this problem is that the Secretary of State for the Colonies has no real control in regard to conditions of employment. That is to say, in the case of the Colonial Civil Service the members are employed by the respective Governments overseas. Therefore, whatever may be the wish of the Secretary of State, these matters have to be considered and dealt with by the respective Governments in the light of their own special circumstances and special problems. Obviously in a matter such as this, our approach is sympathetic. We are conscious of the rather onerous conditions of work under which large numbers of our Colonial servants work. They often work in a difficult climate,.under very great pressure, often in great isolation, living with comparatively few contacts with people of their own homeland, and too often without their families, living on the whole very very difficult lives.

It is our bounden duty, if that service is to maintain a high standard of efficiency, to do everything in our power to make the conditions of work as helpful and as free as is possible. Therefore, our approach is that we should try to influence Colonial Governments to secure for the Colonial Service as reasonable and as happy conditions as are possible, consistent with the circumstances of the territory. There is another point which one must always keep in mind, namely that these services must be made sufficiently attractive to men and women in this country in order that we may enlist the very best in brains and character for the kind of work we have to do. Obviously, so onerous are the conditions of work that it is imperative that there should be ample facilities for" refreshment from time to time.

So far as the Colonial Services are concerned, the leave enjoyed varies with the territory, and the conditions operating there. That is to say, in some territories the average tour is from two to three years in normal times, and civil servants are. given leave at the rate of five days for each month plus the time it takes to go home and to return to the Colony again. In less healthy territories the tour lasts from one to two years, and the servants involved enjoy seven days' leave per month, again plus the voyage time backwards and forwards. In the more healthy regions, civil servants perform a four years' tour and get holidays on the equivalent of four or three and a half days per month, again plus the voyage time. There has been considerable discussion as to whether the tours could be shortened with advantage, whether it could be made possible for those involved to enjoy an annual holiday at home, and whether improved transport facilities could be made available so that, along with the annual holiday, men could travel to the United Kingdom and back by air.

As the House is aware, many of the Colonial Governments have tried to solve this problem in consultation with the Colonial Service, and in some cases very important modifications have occurred in regard to the length of tour and the facilities necessary for the shorter period of leave to give the men the utmost holiday possible. There is considerable difference of view amongst the Colonial civil servants themselves as to the desirability of the changes which have been proposed. It is clear that some men would prefer a sea voyage home rather than an air journey, partly because if they have been working under difficult conditions they like to have a period on the sea in order that they may recover their normal health and be well equipped physically for the holiday on which they are about to enter. Again, the sudden transit from a severe climate after long endurance of it, into a temperate or sometimes very cold climate, does have rather severe physical effects. It has been urged, therefore, that there should be given in working out these arrangements plenty of latitude to the colonial servants involved as to the man- ner in which they would like to discharge their responsibilities. In shortening the tour and making air travel available, there are of course certain difficulties which must be overcome.

I think from what I have said it must be concluded that the length of holiday itself is reasonably fair. It can also be argued, I think, that in normal times the length of the tour is not too much, that that also is reasonable. There are cases where it can be shortened and will be shortened. But as the cost of the Civil Service in so many Colonies is borne on local revenues, it is a matter of great difficulty to increase the staff, to throw new charges on an already overburdened exchequer, in order that those facilities shall be provided. Although, as I say, a number of Colonial Governments are looking at this problem sympathetically, there are limits to which they can go because of the increased expenditure involved; because, obviously, if there are more frequent absences there must be increased staff to take the places of those who are absent.

I can assure the House that this problem is receiving the closest attention from the local Governments, and I think I can inform the hon. Gentleman who introduced the subject that we hope to have a Paper available for the House in the course of a few days, in which a number of proposals have been set forth for the consideration of the Colonial Governments. Amongst these proposals is one concerned with this problem as to whether annual leave can be organised, and, if so, if suitable facilities can be made available. So that we have already taken the necessary steps following on the work already done by a number of Governments.

I should like, in conclusion, to refer to the question of air travel. I have already pointed out that among many Colonial servants it is not popular. It is not popular, not on grounds of apprehension, but because it is too -quick a means of transit from one kind of climate into another. People like to have a period for recuperation before they take their holidays. There is, therefore, a certain amount of prejudice among Colonial civil servants to this kind of transport. I understand, too, that even if such a proposal were adopted now, the transport facilities simply are not there. Air services have to be provided. There are difficulties in regard to frequency of transport by air and so on; but, undoubtedly, these facilities will increase as the days go by. At the moment, however, if the proposal were adopted, it would create considerable difficulties, because of the tremendous demands that already exist for British air transport services. I can only assure the hon. Member that this problem will be kept very much in mind. Already the ideas have been discussed by the Civil Services which are involved, and they have already made a note of the intention of the hon. Member to have this matter discussed in the House. They will give careful consideration to this Debate. We thank him for drawing special attention to the problem, and I am sure that so far as the Colonial Office and the Secretary of State are concerned, we shall do our best to increase or improve the existing amenities for the Colonial servants. Not least amongst those amenities, we hope, will be the improved facilities the hon. Member has suggested.

4.29 p.m.

Squadron-Leader Sir Gifford Fox (Henley)

The Under-Secretary of State does not seem to have been advised on this question of travel by air correctly. To my mind, many of these arguments have been put forward by people who have been in the Colonial Service a long time and are not in touch with modern requirements. What people want to do today is to be able to come back more frequently to this country. You will not get the right people into the Service, if they can come back to this country only after four years. I have a large postbag from men in the Army complaining that the Air Force tour of duty is only three years, whereas the Army's tour of duty is four years. It is a matter which affects the young people.

It being Half-past Four o' Clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.