HC Deb 23 May 1946 vol 423 cc554-60
Mr. Churchill

May I ask the Leader of the House now that we have him back amongst us in his capacity as Leader of the House—

Mr. Godfrey Nicholson

On a point of Order. Must it be assumed that we have now left the food question altogether?

Mr. Speaker

I thought if we got to the Business for next week, perhaps this question might be mentioned and that would be a better opportunity to discuss it.

Mr. Churchill

If, Mr. Speaker, you have dealt with that point of Order, perhaps I might ask the Leader of the House whether he has any statement to make on the Business for next week.

Mr. H. Morrison

The Business for next week will be as follows:

Monday, 27th May, and Tuesday, 28th May.—Debate on the Government Motion relating to the iron and steel industry. In accordance with the suggestion of the Leader of the Opposition, it is proposed to take an Allotted Supply Day formally on Tuesday and then resume and conclude the Debate on the Government Motion relating to iron and steel.

Wednesday, 29th May.—Third Reading of the National Insurance Bill. Motion to approve the Purchase Tax Exemptions (No. 2) Order.

Thursday, 30th May.—Second Reading of the British Museum Bill [Lords]. Committee and remaining stages of the Licensing Planning Bill [Lords]. Consideration of the Motion relating to Members' Salaries and Expenses. Second Reading of the Ministerial Salaries Bill and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.

Friday, 31st May.—Supply (7th allotted day) (2nd part); Committee. The subject for Debate will be announced later.

Mr. Churchill

The right hon. Gentleman has announced the Third Reading of the National Insurance Bill, but we have not so far made any great progess with the Report stage. Originally the Government offered three days for this. If we are unable to complete the Report stage at a reasonable hour tonight, will the Leader of the House consider the completion of the Report stage on Wednesday of next week? If he were willing to do that, we could also include the British Museum Bill and the Licensing Planning Bill in the programme. At any rate, there ought to be a full Debate on the Report stage of the National Insurance Bill. As far as we on this side of the House are concerned, we should agree on this occasion to the Third Reading of the National Insurance Bill being taken on Thursday, in spite of the very short interval between the Report stage and the Third Reading. We would agree to this to facilitate business. I may say that there does not appear to be any particular urgency about the question of Members' salaries. This business can wait until more important matters have been dealt with, and if any change is decided upon by the House, it can be made retrospective.

Mr. Morrison

I think it is better to see how we get on today. I am advised that as far as we can see—other people may see other things—there are only two really big issues which will arise on the remaining part of the Report stage today. There will be other things to debate, and, therefore, though we propose to suspend the Rule, we should hope that with good will and cooperation we may complete the Report stage at a reasonable hour.

Mr. R. A. Butler

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Report stage has hardly begun, and it means taking the Report stage of this important Bill in one day, which is quite unreasonable?

Mr. Morrison

Two days. This is the second day.

Mr. Butler

Yesterday it was Committee.

Mr. Morrison

It is true there was a recommittal yesterday, but it is two days over all. Moreover, if I recollect rightly the right hon. Gentleman himself or one of his colleagues said on the Second Reading that it was not a Bill that in principle was contested by the Opposition, and in those circumstances, with the Opposition declaring themselves friendly to the principles of the Bill, I should have thought that we would have got through the Report stage with reasonable speed.

Mr. Oliver Poole

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in order to expedite the Committee stage, discussion on many points was given up on the assurance of the Minister of National Insurance that they would be raised on the Report stage? I fully agree that some are points which are not very material, but they were brought forward from both sides in order to improve the machinery of the Bill. It is, therefore, quite wrong that we should be limited to one day. No one can say that the Opposition has been contentious. These matters, as I have said, were brought forward from both sides for the general improvement of the Bill, and I contend that we ought to be given extra time for their discussion.

Mr. Morrison

I cannot know, in detail, what happened in the Standing Committee, but I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Minister of National Insurance will do his best to meet any undertakings which he gave. Anyhow, let us see how we get on. I have a feeling that we shall get on quicker than the number of the Amendments on the Order Paper would indicate.

Mr. Sydney Silverman

Is my right hon. Friend aware that those who had some anxiety on this subject. are satisfied that there are only two points of principle remaining to be discussed, and that with reasonable cooperation from both sides of the House' they are capable of being discussed and disposed of today?

Mr. Morrison

In view of the past and anticipated activities of my hon. Friend, he is a most material witness in this matter.

Mr. Churchill

I trust that in spite of the decision which has just been announced, the Leader of the House will consider, as we proceed with the discussion, the question of finding more time— an additional day—for the Report stage of this Bill. Here is a case in which the whole business of Standing Committees is involved. We are anxious to develop that procedure to relieve the House, but it follows that if a Bill is discussed upstairs, its Report stage is of greater consequence in the House. I trust that this may be a matter for discussion, and that the right hon. Gentleman will not feel himself entirely inhibited by the dictates which have just been expressed.

Mr. W. J. Brown

Can the Leader of the House tell us the outcome of the discussions, through the usual channels, on the request made for time to discuss the Motion standing in my name, and in the name of 274 other hon. Members of the House, relating to Civil Service pensions?

[That the whole question of the counting of unestablished Service for Civil Service pensions should be referred to a Select Committee of the House.]

Mr. Morrison

I am not familiar with any discussions through the usual channels on these points, but the answer to the hon. Member is that I do not see, nor do the Government see, the practicability of affording time for a discussion of that Motion. I may say, however, that my hon. Friend the Member for Heston and Isleworth (Mr. Williams) has a Question to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this matter next week, and it is possible that the Chancellor's answer may have a material bearing on this point.

Mr. Brown

Could the Leader of the House say at what point between 199 signatures and 615 signatures, the signatures of Members of this House really count?

Mr. Morrison

I shall try always not to give way to this doctrine of a plebiscite as a method of Parliamentary procedure, whatever the number.

Mr. Churchill

I would like to return to the question of food. I understand that we are to have some talks, and that on Monday it will be settled whether or not the Government will give a day for a Debate on food. May I observe that Friday, which is half a Supply Day, is available? I understand that that day will be kept open.

Mr. Morrison

The right hon. Gentleman is quite right. We shall be most happy to talk through the usual channels, and I hope to make a statement on Monday.

Mr. Churchill

I am sorry to be so persistent, but our Business does require some discussion. With regard to the week after next, can the Leader of the House tell us anything about the Debate on foreign affairs, for which a request was made some time ago? I hope that it will be possible for the Foreign Secretary to open this Debate. It is right that a statement should be made by him to the House concerning the Paris Conference and other matters of immense consequence which have been proceeding. Not since February have we had a Debate on this matter. I am sure the Government will feel—and I am putting this point particularly to the Leader of the House—that they should provide this opportunity, and in order that the Debate may be continued for a second day, which is essential to a Debate on topics of this vast character, we, for our part, should be prepared to give up our claim for one Supply Day. so as to make our contribution.

Mr. Morrison

I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. I think both days arc in Committee of Supply. I understand that arrangements are being made, to the end which the right hon. Gentleman would wish, for the week after next. I hope it will be all right for a two days' Debate, and I shall convey to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary the right hon. Gentleman's wish that he should open the Debate with a survey of and a statement on the foreign situation.

Mr. Churchill

With regard to the days taken for Supply, it has always been the custom that the Opposition are consulted on what topics should be taken, but when the Government have a great account to give of most important matters of public and national policy, it is for them, in the first instance, to find the occasion for opening that Debate. If the Opposition wished to prolong the Debate then they might contribute their Supply Day. I therefore hope that the Leader of the House might find one day, and that the extra day might be found from our side of the House.

Mr. Morrison

With great respect, I do not think I altogether agree. My recollection is that when we were in Opposition, we were expected to take Supply Days when they were available, except on occasions of Votes of Censure, and heavier affairs of that kind. I understand from the Chief Whip that Supply Days have been agreed on, but if the Opposition wish to discuss the matter further it can be discussed. As I have said, with regard to the request that the Debate should be opened by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary with a comprehensive statement, I shall convey that wish to my right hon. Friend.

Mr. Churchill

Then the question of one or two Supply Days can be discussed through the usual channels?

Mr. Morrison

Yes, but we had provisionally arranged for a two days' Debate.