HC Deb 20 May 1946 vol 423 cc35-42
Mr. Eden

Has the Leader of the House any statement to make about Business this week?

The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Arthur Greenwood)

Yes, Sir. We have now had an opportunity of consultation with my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, and the Government are prepared to make arrangements for a Debate to take place on Egypt on Friday of this week. The Debate will arise on the appropriate Vote in Committee of Supply. In view of this alteration, we hope that it may be possible for the Report stage of the National Insurance Bill to be concluded on Thursday night. We hope that hon. Members in all quarters of the House will be willing to cooperate and assist in the completion of the Report stage of the National Insurance Bill in the two days.

Mr. Eden

As regards the last part of what the right hon. Gentleman has just said, I know that it is common form for the Leader of the House to express hopes, but I only want to make it quite clear that there could not be any undertaking on our part in respect of these two days.

Mr. Greenwood

I have some little experience in these matters, and I appreciate perfectly that it is not a firm undertaking, but seeing that, under great pressure of time, we have agreed to the request of the Opposition for a Debate on Egypt on Friday, I should hope that the House would cooperate in giving us the Report stage in two days.

Mr. Eden

I quite agree with what the right hon. Gentleman says, but I must point out that no sacrifice is being made by the Government in giving us this Debate on Friday, because it is a Supply Day and, therefore, comes out of Opposition time.

Mr. Sydney Silverman

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that a very large number of hon. Members on this side of the House would be very reluctant to sacrifice a proper examination of some Clauses in the National Insurance Bill in favour of a discussion on Egypt, which, to many of us, seems premature while negotiations are continuing?

Mr. Greenwood

I was not a Member of the Standing Committee on the National Insurance Bill, but I should have thought that most of the Clauses—I do not say necessarily all—have been fairly adequately debated on the Committee stage, and as there seems to be a strong desire that His Majesty's Government should face this issue of Egypt, we have tried to do so at the earliest possible opportunity. Although the negotiations have not really proceeded very far, if a challenge is offered—and the Leader of the Opposition challenged me about a Vote of Censure last week—we are prepared to give a day for a Debate. Of course, the Opposition must make their contribution as well as the Government, and I hope my hon. Friends on this side of the House will be prepared to concede it in support of the proposal which I have made today.

Mr, Gallacher

In the discussion on the Report stage of the Bill, will it be possible to avoid what happened on the Report stage of the Coal Bill—namely, Members bringing down the Report and reading the speeches which they made upstairs?

Mr. Greenwood

That is not a matter for me.

Mr. Silverman

While we are all willing to cooperate, will my right hon. Friend remember that the Government thought, and most of us agreed with them, that three days would be required for the Report stage of the Insurance Bill, and the fact that it has been thought necessary to agree to the request of the Opposition for a day on which to discuss Egypt does not alter the number of points that we have to discuss on the Insurance Bill?

Mr. Greenwood

I do not understand my hon. Friend's point of view about this. [An HON. MEMBER: "It makes sense."] It is not the first time that people standing at this Box have said that they do not understand the point of view of Members on their side of the House. It does occasionally happen. The Leader of the Opposition exhibited great indignation about the question of Egypt. He did threaten us with a Vote of Censure, which I said we would accept, and I will repeat that we are prepared to accept it. I do not think it is disadvantageous to have a Debate this week, and we have chosen the earliest possible day. I still think that even if we had an extra day for the Report stage of the Bill, there would be many unsatisfied people who would not have unburdened their souls. It is the case with all Bills. I hope the House will be prepared to agree with what, I submit, is a reasonable corn-promise in a difficult situation.

Mr. Eden

May I ask the Leader of the House to bear in mind that the granting of a Supply Day out of Opposition time is irrelevant to the amount of time needed for the Report stage of this Bill?

We are not depriving the Government at any of their time by taking a Supply Day this week, and if a third day is thought right for the Report stage, it can easily be given next week.

Mr. Greenwood

This new alliance somewhat surprises me. Now that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has come back—I did not know when he was coming back—and he is prepared for a discussion, although last Thursday my mood was against it, on reflection I do not see why we should not have it. in fact, giving up Friday does lose us a day. If my hon. Friend gets his way, I have to provide another day next week which, in the circumstances, judging by the short amount of time and the Business we have got to do up to Whitsuntide, is impossible.

Mr. Silverman

Is my right hon. Friend not under an illusion? He has not got to give us an extra day at all. The number of Supply Days to which the Opposition are entitled remains the same, and, therefore, we would not be giving up a n extra day. May I further ask my right hon. Friend to hear in mind that those of us on this side of the House who take this view are very anxious indeed to cooperate, and we are very anxious that the Bill should take only two days, if it can really be done in two days, but we do not want to be rushed, if it turns out that it cannot be done in two days, merely to satisfy the desires of the Opposition.

Mr. Greenwood

It is not merely to satisfy the desires of the Opposition. Indeed, last week I showed no desire to satisfy the Opposition, if I recollect aright. It is really that the Foreign Secretary, who is now back, thinks it would be desirable to have a discussion. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh! "] I still do not appreciate the sense of humour of the Opposition. The Foreign Secretary is prepared to meet that challenge, and thinks that in the national interest, and indeed in the interests of international politics, it is well that such a challenge should be met as early as possible. We choose to do that this week, and I should have thought the Opposition would be pleased about it. If we cannot finish the Report stage of the National Insurance Bill in two days, it is not a case of an Opposition Supply Day going; the chances are it is a Government day which will go, namely, one day next week, which means that the pressure of business up to Whitsuntide, which we are rapidly approaching, will be so great that our programme will be thrown out of balance.

An Hon. Member

It was thrown out of balance long ago.

Mr. Greenwood

I still do not appreciate that sense of humour. I must ask the House to collaborate with us in getting the Report stage completed by Friday.

Sir Arnold Gridley

In the Standing Committee upstairs there was only one-twelfth of the House going into the National Insurance Bill in detail. On the Report stage there are the remaining eleven-twelfths, who have never had an opportunity of considering the Bill properly. When the alteration of Business procedure was discussed the other week, it was pointed out that the Report stage would, therefore, be much more important in future. In those circumstances surely we are entitled to have the three days.

Sir Ronald Ross

Is not the true position in regard to Business this, that instead of the Government having made any sacrifice, they will ingeniously gain half a day by giving Friday as a Supply Day, which they were bound to do at some time, and at the same time asking the House to cooperate with them in cutting short the Debate on the Report stage of a very important Bill in order that the Foreign Secretary, at his own desire—

Mr. Greenwood

No.

Sir R. Ross

—may be able to reply to any attacks made upon the conduct of the Government in relation to Egypt? The affairs in Egypt came to a crisis owing to the action of His Majesty's Government, and it might have been anticipated that this House would wish to discuss a matter of such gravity. The only step which the Government are taking in allowing this Debate to take place seems to be giving a half day and unduly curtailing an important Debate.

Mr. Greenwood

This really must come to an end now.

Hon. Members

Why?

Mr. Hogg

Move the Closure.

Mr. Greenwood

The issue is perfectly clear. If this House is not prepared to accept my proposal, I now withdraw, if the House so desires, the opportunity for the Debate on Friday.

Mr. Stanley Prescott

Might not the discussion on the Report stage of this Bill be shortened if hon Members opposite would vote for our Amendments which support their points of view?

Mr. Manningham-Buller

Last Thursday my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) asked you, Mr. Speaker, for your guidance as to what extent it would be in Order on the Cable and Wireless Bill to make reference to the White Paper in regard to that Bill. You indicated that you had not had an opportunity of reading the White Paper. May I now ask if you can give any indication as to the width of the Debate?

Mr. Speaker

I have now had an opportunity of reading the White Paper. As far as I can see, the White Paper comprises the background of the Bill. Therefore, it would be in Order to discuss it during the Second Reading Debate. There is only one proviso that I should like to make. On the top of page 7 of the White Paper it says: It is the Government's intention to seek further Parliamentary approval later for the establishment of the Commonwealth Telecommunications Board.… That cannot be ruled out altogether, but to go into it in too much detail would, I think, be out of Order. With that reservation, it seems to me that the whole of the White Paper can be discussed during the Debate on the Bill.

Mr. Stephen

I would like to have this matter clear in regard to the Business. Is the position this week now that three days are to be devoted to the Report stage of the National Insurance Bill?

Mr. Greenwood

I think my hon. Friend has won a Pyrrhic victory and there will be no Debate on Egypt on Friday.

Mr. Eden

The right hon. Gentleman's offer was that there would be two days for the Report stage, which he hoped would be concluded on Thursday night, and that Friday would be given to Egypt. What we on this side of the House said was that there could be no undertaking, nor can there be, on a matter of this sort which concerns the Whole House. Is that no longer the position?

Mr. Greenwood

I accepted that, while expressing the hope that, having given this day—and the right hon. Gentleman will hear in mind what I said—all sides of the House would cooperate in finishing the Report stage in two days. There is now a demand on both sides of the House that they must have three days for the Report stage. I say that if that is so, I accept it, and there is no Debate on Egypt on Friday.

Mr. Hogg

Does this mean that what the right hon. Gentleman said about the Debate on Egypt being at the instance and desire of the Foreign Secretary is now no longer true? Was it ever true?

Mr. Greenwood

Mr. Speaker, I am sorry the discussion has been prolonged. I did not say it was at the instance and instigation of the Foreign Secretary.

Mr. Hogg

The desire.

Mr. Greenwood

I wish hon. Members would wait. What I have said will be reported in HANSARD. Let me try to put it again. The Foreign Secretary, having learned of the statements that were made in the House last Thursday, thought that an early Debate would be desirable if the House were very keen about it. I will now elaborate my statement. If the House were very keen, he was prepared to respond to the invitation. In collaboration with the Chief Whip and others, we agreed that Friday might be appropriate, but we did hope that the Report stage of the National Insurance Bill would be completed in two days. It now appears that there is a great variety of opinion on this matter. That being so, I cannot go forward with the promise which I made` At the same time, appreciating the difficulty of asking my right hon. Friend to give a pledge about finishing in two days, at least I am under no obligation to allow the House to rise very early on either Wednesday or Thursday nights.

Mr. Eden

I think the right hon. Gentleman is really being less than just to the House. There are two separate issues. We were prepared to give up one of our days for a discussion on Egypt. That appears to be agreeable to the Foreign Secretary and everybody else. If that is settled, it is really not relevant to the amount of time given to the Report stage of the National Insurance Bill. I do not ask for an answer now, but I do ask the right hon. 'Gentleman to consider this matter further through the usual channels to see whether some arrangement can be arrived at. I do not think it is true to say that, because we are giving up a Supply Day for a Debate on this issue that, therefore, affects the amount of time for discussing a Bill on which there is no question of a Supply Day.

Mr. Greenwood

I still think it would be reasonably possible to finish the Report stage in two days. It may mean sitting late. I am not unreasonable, and I hope I am not unjust. However, I have been provoked a little this afternoon, and I hope I have not lost my temper; I very rarely do. Through the usual channels I am prepared to discuss whether any amicable arrangement can be made. I have never given a pledge about a Report stage from the Box opposite myself; I have always said we would do our best, and often enough we have done. Therefore, in the discussions that take place I do not ask for a hard and fast pledge which it would not be within the power of the right hon. Gentleman to fulfil. I am sure there is good will on both sides. If the right hon. Gentleman would like to discuss it with me today, I will be prepared to go into the matter further.

Mr. Gallacher

Can we not go on all night on Wednesday and right on through Thursday?

Mr. Gallacher

Before we move on to Business, Mr. Speaker, I should like some information on the Motion standing on the Paper today nominating Members of the Select Committee on the Railways (Valuation for Rating) Bill.

Mr. Speaker

That Motion does not come on now; it comes after the Third Reading of the Coal Industry Nationalisation Bill.