HC Deb 21 March 1946 vol 420 cc2003-6
2. Mr. Sutcliffe

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is now in a position to announce the Government's plans for the future of the N.F.S.

3. Mr. Douglas Marshall

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he now has any statement to make as to the future of the N.F.S.

19. Mr. Frederick Willey

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is now in a position to make an announcement on the future of the N.F.S.

Mr. Ede

As the reply to these Questions is rather long I will, with your leave, Mr. Speaker, make a statement at the end of Questions.

Later,—

Mr. Ede

Yes, Sir. The replacement of some 1,600 fire authorities by the National Fire Service in 1941 was a remarkable achievement and the nation owes a debt of gratitude to all who were concerned in it. It was not contemplated at the time that the service would continue as a national organisation after the war, and the Government have decided that adequate arrangements for peacetime purposes can be made under a local authority organisation. They are satisfied, however, in the light of experience that larger units of organisation and a smaller number of fire authorities are essential for efficiency.

After discussions with the Associations of Local Authorities, which began in November, 1944, the Government have come to the conclusion that the Fire Service should be transferred to the control of the councils of counties and county-boroughs in England and Wales, and of counties and large burghs in Scotland. In England and Wales special arrangements will be made to meet the case of particular areas where an organisation on this basis would not be consistent with the requirements of efficiency. In Scot land my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland proposes that the counties and large burghs should be organised in eleven areas, within each of which provision shall be made for a single operational unit under joint local authority administration.

It is also proposed that there should be a larger measure of central direction and control, including conditions of ser vice as well as efficiency. My right hon. Friend and I hope to announce shortly the setting up of new machinery representative of the local authorities, of the members of the Fire Service, of the Home Office and of the Scottish Office, to deal with conditions of service. The local authority representatives do not dissent from the proposal for greater central direction and control but have urged that, in the circumstances, it would be appropriate that there should be some measure, of direct Exchequer assistance towards the expenditure involved in complying with any standards that may be laid down. The Government accept this view and will be prepared to discuss with local authorities a scheme of assistance which will have regard to local resources.

A Bill to give effect to these proposals will be introduced as soon as possible. In the meantime, the National Fire Ser vice will continue on its present basis.

I should like to close by expressing, on behalf of the Secretary of State for Scot land and myself an appreciation of the spirit in which the officers and men and women of the National Fire Service have tackled the many difficulties of the last five years, and our confidence that they will continue to show that spirit during the coining months.

Mr. Sutcliffe

Will the Home Secretary say whether the local authorities are in complete agreement with the plans throughout, and will he also say if there is to be any employment of women in the Fire Service?

Mr. Ede

With regard to the first part of that question, it would be an exaggeration to say that the local authorities are in complete agreement with this or any other scheme. I had an interview with them early this week: the urban district councils and the rural district councils expressed a sense of disappointment, and the counties and county boroughs expressed a willing ness to meet me to consider the exact terms of the Bill that is to be introduced. With regard to the future employment of women, I hope that suitable opportunities will be found for women to continue the excellent work which they have done in this Service.

Mr. Henderson Stewart

May I ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he proposes to indicate the details of the scheme, particularly the areas to be covered by the II separate districts to which reference has been made, and what counties will come within those districts, and in other ways inform us of the details of this Measure?

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Westwood)

I cannot state a time for giving a full, detailed explanation of these proposals, but I have already been in consultation with the local authorities in Scot land, and I have already set up a liaison committee for the purpose of working out the details of the application of this particular scheme. So far as my meetings with them are concerned, there have been no signs of hostility. There has been a little disappointment on the part of the small burghs, but I have an assurance that they are prepared to do all that is possible to make the scheme a success in Scotland.

Wing-Commander Hulbert

As there is to be a multiplicity of fire authorities, can the Home Secretary say whether the equipment will be standardised through out the country?

Mr. Ede

That is one of the things to wards which we must work, but we cannot afford to scrap some of the non-standardised equipment until we have sufficient standardised equipment to replace it.

Mr. Walkden

In view of the economy and efficiency discovered during the war in relation to the Ambulance Service, are there now any ways and means of taking advantage of that experience and merging the Ambulance Service with the Fire Service?

Mr. Ede

The merging is by no means complete throughout the country, but the future of the Ambulance Service will have to be discussed with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health.

Mr. Orr-Ewing

The Home Secretary did not mean, I take it, that he intended to carry out schemes of amalgamations in certain areas where the general outline he suggested would not work satisfactorily before the introduction of the Bill?

Mr. Ede

Clearly I have no powers to do anything of that sort until the House has passed the necessary legislation, but I shall conduct a series of meetings with the representatives of the County Councils' Association and the Association of Municipal Corporations, with a view to getting a map drawn that will enable me to have an adequate fire cover throughout the country, having regard to local conditions.

Mr. Tolley

Will my right hon. Friend state the proportion of grant he is pre pared to make to local authorities for this Service in the future?

Mr. Ede

No, Sir, not at this stage.

Mr. Osborne

Is the Home Secretary aware that in certain county towns where divisional headquarters have been established, there is a local feeling that there has been a great wastage of petrol, man power and materials? Will the right hon. Gentleman keep that in mind?

Mr. Ede

We are moving from a war time to a peacetime establishment, and among the things we shall have to discuss with the local authorities is the standard of fire cover, including manpower, that will have to be adopted, having regard to the risks in each area.

Colonel Wheatley

Will the right hon. Gentleman consult the Non-County Boroughs Association?

Mr. Ede

The non-county boroughs were represented at these conferences by the Association of Municipal Corporations. If any association desires to see me I am always available.

Mr. Gallacher

Would the Secretary of State for Scotland call an early meeting of Scottish Members in Edinburgh to discuss this question as it affects Scotland?

Mr. Erroll

Will the right hon. Gentle man consider allowing efficient non- county boroughs to retain their fire ser vices, where he is satisfied that they are really efficient?

Mr. Ede

No non-county borough at the moment has a fire service.