HC Deb 22 July 1946 vol 425 cc1691-3

3.45 p.m.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Key)

I beg to move, in page 4, line 31, to leave out: purposes of those hospitals or any of them, and to insert: purpose of providing hospital accommodation for persons in their area. This Amendment is designed to cover the situation with regard to the liabilities of local authorities which the present wording does not secure shall be transferred to the Minister. The liabilities, for instance, are those in connection with loans which local authorities have entered into for the purpose of providing moneys either to lend or to give to voluntary hospitals to enable them to extend their services. The liabilities with regard to these loans we consider as something which should be transferred to the Minister, and the purpose of the Amendment is to secure that transfer.

Mr. J. S. C. Reid

We have been told about the liabilities to be transferred, but we have not been told what assets are to be transferred. As I understand the Amendment, it widens the class of assets which will be transferred from local authorities to the Minister, and I wonder whether the Parliamentary Secretary can give us any information as to any further assets that will be covered, by this widened form of words.

Mr. Key

The assets are included in the buildings and services of the voluntary hospitals which have been improved and extended as a result of the advances which the local authorities have made to the voluntary hospital governors concerned.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Key

I beg to move, in page 5, line 27, to leave out "and," and to insert: (d) for the transfer to and vesting in the Minister of interests held solely for the purposes of two or more voluntary hospitals to which this Section applies in, premises used for the purposes of those hospitals, and of property and liabilities which would, if the interests were held and the premises used solely for the purposes of one such hospital, be transferred to the Minister under Subsection (1) of this Section or apportioned to him under the foregoing provisions of this Subsection; and. This Amendment is designed to meet the position in connection with voluntary hospitals two or more of which may join together for the purpose of providing an institution for common user, such, for instance, as a school for nurses, which may have been provided by two or three voluntary hospitals. As Clause 6 is drafted at present, these joint premises would not fall to be transferred to the Minister at the time of the transference under the general hospitals scheme. Of course, these are part and parcel of the hospital service, and therefore, it is necessary to secure that they shall be transferred with the hospitals at the normal time.

Mr. Reid

I wonder whether these words are not too wide for the purpose which the Government have in view. As the Parliamentary Secretary knows, under Clause 6 (1) there are transferred, not only things belonging to the governing body of a hospital, but also assets held by trustees solely for the purposes of a hospital. We are now to widen that to include all assets held by trustees for the purposes of a number of hospitals. That, I take it, will be the effect of the Amendment. There is a very large number of funds held by trustees. I do not know the precise terms of their trust deeds, but I suspect that some of them, at least, may hold their funds solely for the purposes of assisting hospitals, and for no other purpose. Therefore, I am a little apprehensive as to whether this widened form of words does not bring in—I think contrary to the Minister's intention—those funds which are held by trustees solely for the purpose of distributing the income of them among a large number of hospitals. I do not think that can be the intention of the Minister. I hope he will tell us that it is not his intention, and if so, perhaps he would be good enough to look at the words again to see whether they do not go beyond what he wants. I ask the Minister, first, whether it is his intention to take any part of the assets of these large trusts, which hold millions of pounds for the benefit of hospitals, and if it is not his intention to take any part of those assets, will be look at the wording again to see that those assets are not endangered?

Mr. Bevan

In so far as they are endowments, of course, they would be involved in the transfer to the Endowment Fund, but otherwise not. If the language goes rather wide, I will certainly have a look at it.

Mr. Reid

Do I understand that there is no intention to take any part of the property, assets or endowments held by these large trusts which, in fact, give money to a great number of hospitals?

Mr. Bevan

If the right hon. and learned Gentleman will look at the wording he will see that it says "premises ".

Mr. Reid

It says a great deal more than that—it mentions property and liability. Property will include all kinds of things, and I am not at all clear what the exclusion of the endowments in line 21 on page 4 amounts to when read with this new Subsection. I have found the drafting rather obscure and difficult and, therefore, I have not raised the question of drafting. What I want to know is the right hon. Gentleman's intention. If he will tell us quite specifically, that he does not want to touch any part of the funds, buildings, or property of any of these large trusts, then we can leave it with confidence to him and his advisers to see that that is carried out. I would like a specific assurance that that is his intention.

Mr. Bevan

That is the intention.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.