HC Deb 22 July 1946 vol 425 cc1700-3
Mr. Key

I beg to move, in page 45, line 8, to leave out from "Any," to "to," in line 9, and to insert: payments made under regulations in respect of any loss of remunerative time or any travelling or subsistence expenses. This Amendment is consequential upon Amendments made in Committee to the First, Third and Fifth Schedules in which provision was made for the payment of loss of remunerative time to members of the Central Health Services Council, Advisory Committees, Regional Boards, hospital management committees and so on. This Amendment gives the necessary power to make payment from the Exchequer in cases outlined in those Schedules.

Mr. J. S. C. Reid

By the time we reached this part of the Bill upstairs, it was the 19th day in Committee and we were running along very quickly. I am not sure that we were quite at one on this point. The Minister said, and we accepted it, that next year he hoped to have legislative sanction on a broad basis for paying members of all kinds of local government bodies for loss of remunerative time, and he wanted this to be in the Bill in order that there would be power to marry the two schemes so that the health scheme could be brought into line with the general policy of Parliament as it might be determined next year. That seemed reasonable, but I asked the Minister a question and I am not sure whether he wants to stand by his answer. I hope not, but if he does, I hope he will justify it. I asked the Minister whether he would agree not to introduce this new principle of payment for loss of remunerative time with regard to members of his new health bodies, until the general principles had been settled by Parliament. That seemed the proper way to proceed. Certainly let him take power in the Bill to bring the arrangements for members of committees set up by the Bill, into line with the general local authority arrangements to be settled by this House when the time comes. But I do not think the Minister can really want to promulgate his system of payment for loss of remunerative time before the matter has been determined by this House on a broad basis. We were rather rushed at that period, and I am not sure whether the Minister meant that he wanted to do that or not, but I hope that he will now say that, if we give him this power, he will not try to introduce a new system of this kind before general legislation has been approved by Parliament—I do not say, reached the stage of Royal Assent—but that he will not start on his own, before it is clear what Parliament wants done. If the Minister will say that, I see no objection to this Amendment.

Mr. Bevan

The right hon. and learned Member, upon reflection, would not, I think, press me to give such an undertaking. It would be my aim to get the principles underlying payment for loss of remunerative time discussed and approved by Parliament, before they were operated under this scheme, but it may be impracticable to do so. The right hon. and learned Gentleman will agree with me that it would be very wrong of me to commit myself to such a principle, although, as I said, it would be my intention. At any rate, it is always within the power of the Opposition and of any hon. Member of this House to insist on a Parliamentary discussion on such a matter, because a Prayer can be put down. However, I assure hon. Members that I am not now seeking an escape in this matter, because I have already practically appointed, the committee to consider this matter. I have asked them to expedite their examination of this problem, and I hope I shall get the report fairly quickly. It is not a complicated question, and therefore there is no reason why we should not have the report fairly quickly.

I have said before, and hon. Members in all parts of the Committee will agree, that it is necessary to get these Regional Boards into existence as soon as possible. They have to plan their hospital services long before the date for the operation of the scheme. It would, therefore, be most improper if very many people with long experience of hospital administration and local government organisation were unable to serve upon these boards because they could not afford to do so. If I gave so strict an undertaking as the right hon. and learned Gentleman asks, I might deny to all of us the valuable services of many people at the beginning of the scheme when most of the work will fall on the Regional Board. Later, when the Regional Boards have become established, their administration will be comparatively simple and make less call on the services of the members, but at the beginning, when the whole hospital organisation in the area has to be planned, when the relationship between the management committees and the Regional Board will be determined and when the members will have to advise upon the creation of management committees, I want to allow the committee to avail itself of the services of members with a rich and valuable experience in all classes of the community. Poor people ought not to be denied the opportunity of giving this service, because they would lose by doing so.

4.15 p.m.

Mr. Reid

I realise the strength of the Minister's argument. On the other hand, he will agree that it would be a very unfortunate thing if the principles of this method of payment had to be discussed in this House for the first time on a Prayer, because he is as well aware as any of us of the severe limitations under which such a discussion suffers.

Mr. Bevan indicated assent.

Mr. Reid

We have had many examples of that in recent times. That would be all right if it were a non-controversial matter, but to raise a controversy on a Prayer, as a first stage in this new, departure, would be extremely unfortunate. I do not propose, in view of what the Minister has said, to press this point.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.