HC Deb 10 July 1946 vol 425 cc467-72

Lords Amendment: In page 51, line 38, at end, insert: (Curtilages and development sites.) 9. In cases in which an interest in fixed property vests in the Board, whether without option or by virtue of the exercise of an option, and the owner of that interest has also an interest in land used exclusively or mainly for coal industry or transferred allied activities for which that property is used, or an interest in land owned by him exclusively for the purpose of having land available for use for such activities or an extension thereof, the interest of that owner in that land.

Mr. Gaitskell

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

The position is that the land is subject to the option of either the owner or the Board, subject to arbitration. That is to say, it falls into either Part III or Part IV of the First Schedule. The Government have come to the conclusion, however, that there are some occasions when the land must go to the Board; for example, land which is used exclusively or mainly for colliery activities, or land which is owned exclusively for the purpose of having it available for development in connection with colliery activities. The Amendment proposes, in effect, to put those classes of land into Part I of the First Schedule, leaving all other types of land, as at present, in Part III of the First Schedule. In case there may be an objection on the part of hon. Members opposite that we are putting too much into Part I of the First Schedule, I might perhaps add that we are proposing to move something else from Part II into Part III, namely brickworks, in the succeeding Amendment, so that there will be something of a balance.

Question put, and agreed to.—[Special Entry.]

Lords Amendment: In page 52, line 5, leave out sub-paragraph (a).

Mr. Gaitskell

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

As I mentioned at the end of my remarks on the preceding Amendment, the effect of this Amendment is to transfer colliery owned brickworks, etc., from Part II to Part III of the First Schedule. Thus, they come in the categories where either party may opt, but subject to arbitration in the case of objection. This matter was discussed earlier, and it is a case in which the Government have had second thoughts and have agreed to what they were asked to do.

Colonel Clarke

I do not think we can pass without comment over this battle ground, over which for so many months the fight has raged backwards and forwards. I am glad that, in its final phase, the line is stabilised in the direction in which we wished to have it. The point has been debated on many occasions, and I do not wish to go over those arguments, but I would just say that we welcome this Amendment because we believe that it will be fair to all concerned, not only to the collieries who may or may not want to get rid of their brickworks, but to the Board who may or may not want to take them over. More flexibility in that way will make the position more satisfactory, and will make it a better Clause.

Lords Amendment: In page 52, line 20, after the second "wharves," insert "in"; after "and" insert "in."

Mr. Gaitskell

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

Colonel Clarke

I cannot let this Amendment pass without making one last attempt to ascertain what are "wharves not being canal wharves." The words are: … in wharves not being canal wharves, private harbours and staithes. On numerous occasions I have tried to find out what those words mean, and I now ask the Minister to clear the matter up, so that it will not go in the records of the House and in Statute law as one of those great mysteries which have never been solved.

Mr. Shinwell

The nature of the English language is such that sometimes we may be misled by nomenclature. What is a wharf? It is assumed that a wharf is a structure alongside a piece of water. That does not always follow. There can be a structure alongside a particular factory or railway siding which may be regarded as a wharf. I am no oracle, but it seems to me to be common sense that if at some time such a structure should be discovered adjacent to a siding, a factory, or to any concern formerly associated with a colliery undertaking which, in the opinion of the Board, can be described or construed as a wharf, within the meaning of the English language, as defined in any dictionary of a popular kind, then clearly advantage should be taken of those facts.

That is all there is in it. If the hon. and gallant Member persists, as indeed he persisted during the Committee stage, in demanding from me where this particular wharf is situate, I confess quite frankly, I do not know. I have asked the question myself several times, and I have ventured upon answers myself when none were forthcoming from other quarters. Since I have been pressed on the point I have given what I think is a reasonable answer, based, as it may be, on a hypothesis. Nevertheless it will have to suffice. I beg of the hon. and gallant Member at this stage to refrain from asking questions which present great difficulty.

Lords Amendment: In page 53, line 7, at end, insert: 18. Interests of colliery concerns and of Class A subsidiaries thereof in fixed and moveable property used for the purposes of the making of bricks, tiles or earthenware pipes, or other products manufactured from colliery debris or brick clay or earth or in connection with those purposes and interests of such concerns and subsidiaries in consumable or spare stores available for use for such activities as are mentioned in this paragraph. Where an option is exercised for the vesting in the Board of an interest in property mentioned in this paragraph, the activities for which that property is used or that interest is owned shall be treated for the purposes of paragraphs 3 to 8 of this Schedule as if those activities had been colliery production activities.

Mr. Gaitskell

I beg to move, "That this House, doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

Major Roberts

Mr. Speaker, I would like to have your guidance on a point of Order here. From one part of the Schedule, brickworks have been taken, also debris, brick clay and earth, as the case may be. Am I entitled to ask why these particular products have been taken out of one Schedule, and why other items have not been taken out?

Mr. Shinwell

I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman would be very much in Order in asking that question. I presume, Mr. Speaker, you would agree. There is, of course, an answer, and it is this. In the case of brickworks it was thought that if there was a brickworks which had formerly been associated with a colliery undertaking, but which was not regarded as an essential part of the colliery undertaking, it should be excluded from the old provision and inserted in the new provision. That has been done. In the case of coke ovens it is quite different. There is no doubt that coke ovens are an integral part of a colliery undertaking's activities. That is clear. Coke cannot be produced without coal. Bricks can be produced without having coal on the site. It is perfectly true one can have coke ovens and transport the coal to the location. However, generally speaking, and for the purposes we have in view, it will be admitted, and must be admitted, that coke ovens, apart from those associated with steel and iron undertakings, are an integral part of the colliery concerns. It is because of that that we have left coke ovens where they were. I know the hon. and gallant Member does not like it. I am well aware of his views on this matter. We have left them where they were, but we have undoubtedly made a concession in this case as regards the bricks.

Lords Amendment. In page 53, line 30, after "activities," insert: of a kind specified by the Board in their notice exercising the option as being activities for which they intend to use that property, or, if the option is exercised by the owner activities of a kind.

Mr. Gaitskell

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

Perhaps I should say one or two words in explanation here. The present Bill provides that where property vests under option ancillary equipment shall also vest with it. Ancillary equipment in the case of composite undertakings may have been used partly in connection with activities to be transferred to the Board, and partly in connection with activities which will remain with the owner. Therefore, this Amendment lays down the criterion in these cases that, where the Board exercises the option it takes over the equipment belonging to activities for which it intends to use the property. On the other hand, where the owner exercises the option he hands over equipment mainly in connection with the property he is handing over.

Lords Amendment: In page 53, line 48, at end, insert: (7) References in this Schedule to any business or activities, and references in the definition therein of the expression "subsidiary'' to ownership of capital of a company, shall be construed as references to the business or activities as carried on immediately before the dates respectively mentioned in the preceding sub-paragraph, or to the ownership of the capital as held immediately before those Cates respectively, subject however to the provisions of the next succeeding paragraph

7.15 p.m.

Mr. Gaitskell

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This Amendment and the next Amendment, in page 54, line 4, are designed to tighten up and improve the drafting of what is generally known as the "freezing provision," that is to say, Part V of the First Schedule. I think no special point arises on that.

Lords Amendment: In page 54, line 48, at end, insert: interest does not include a mortgage estate or other interest held by way of security.''

Mr. Gaitskell

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This is designed to prevent the danger that compensation might be paid twice to a colliery company which held a mortgage on another company.

Lords Amendment: In page 55, line 45, at end, insert: the expression 'mortgage estate' means the right of the creditor in a heritable security

Mr. Shinwell

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This is necessary because provision must be made in connection with Scottish interests.