HC Deb 21 February 1946 vol 419 cc1294-300
49. Mr. R. A. Butler

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will give the House the particulars of all the cases of alleged hardship amongst employees in the hotel and catering industry, of which he has been informed.

Mr. Isaacs

As action is proceeding on these cases I do not think it would be in the best interests of those concerned to follow the course suggested by the right hon. Gentleman. In so far as questions of wages and conditions of employment are concerned, I am hopeful that when the Wages Board has formulated wage regulation proposals there will be such a material improvement as to obviate the possibility of hardship.

Mr. Butler

May I ask if, in saying that action is proceeding, the right hon. Gentleman implies that these matters are sub judice? If that is the case, why did he refer to these matters in the House, and not give us particulars, and thereby make a breach of the arrangement he is now trying to make with me and the House?

Mr. Isaacs

If the right hon. Gentleman looked at the answer to the first part of the Question, he would have seen that does not arise. These are not sub judice as far as I am concerned. These are matters that came to my attention; and I find these grievances are so widespread that I propose to take whatever steps are open to me to see they are corrected.

Mr. Butler

May I ask if the right hon. Gentleman will lay before the House particulars of the cases which he mentioned to the House, and of which he gave us no particulars, according to the usual procedure of this House?

Mr. Isaacs

As I said in the first part of my original answer, I do not think it would be in the best interests of those concerned to follow that, and until I get all the information and get their consent I do not propose to disclose it.

Mr. Arthur Lewis

If the right hon. Gentleman is intending to take further steps in this matter, will he guarantee that there will be no victimisation of any catering employees?

Mr. Isaacs

That is a part of the reason why I do not wish to give further particulars now.

Mr. Marlowe

Is the House to understand from the reply, that when the right hon. Gentleman gave these facts to the House the other night, he did not have full information in his possession?

Mr. Isaacs

No, Sir. I had full information on this, but since I gave those facts, I have been so overwhelmed by correspondents giving other facts of other places that I think it best to make investigation.

Mr. Butler

This is a very important point. Can I put this question? Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that it was in the interests of the only case he did mention, of which we have had the facts put before us in public, that we investigated the facts and found that they were not as the right hon. Gentleman stated?

Mr. Isaacs

The right hon. Gentleman seems to me very well informed. I did not give the names of the cases, and yet he says he has investigated them— [Hon. Members: "Oddenino's."] There is another Question on the Order Paper about that. I do not run away from that. Wait until we get to it.

50. Mr. R. A. Butler

asked the Minister of Labour whether he has submitted to the machinery established under the Catering Wages Act, 1943, particulars of those cases of which he has been informed, or whether he has caused the cases to be otherwise examined.

Mr. Isaacs

As the functions of the machinery established under the Catering Wages Act, 1943, do not include the settlement of disputes or differences between individual employers and workers, the answer to the first part of the Question is in the negative. As regards the second partof the Question, I am considering what action I can properly take to arrange a discussion between the parties.

Mr. Butler

May I ask, in view of the importance of these cases, to which we attach as much importance as the right hon. Gentleman, whether he will keep the House fully informed of the developments?

Mr. Isaacs

If Questions are put down about the course of these proceedings I shall be glad to answer them.

Mr. Lipson

May I ask if the Minister will tell the House whether the facts he gave last week about Oddenino's are correct or not?

Mr. Isaacs

There is another Question on the Order Paper about that.

Mr. A. Lewis

May I ask the Minister whether he agrees that it would be an advantage to the employers in the catering industry and to the employees, if the catering employers would have the decency to answer letters from trade unions?

Mr. Isaacs

I am most anxious not to say anything one way or another that may make further difficulties for those against whom the complaints have been made.

53. Mr. W. Shepherd

asked the Minister of Labour whether he has considered the copy of the statement made by the employees of Oddenino's which has been sent to him; and what action he proposes to take.

57 Mr. Prescott

asked the Minister of Labour what action heproposes to take as a result of the document, a copy of which has been sent him, issued by over 150 employees of Messrs. Oddenino's, and wherein it is stated that during the whole course of their employment they have at all times been treated with the greatest consideration; that their conditions of employment have been exemplary; and that they have never in any agreement of service been restricted in association with any trades union to which they desired to be associated.

58. Mr. Martin Lindsay

asked theMinister of Labour if he has considered the communication sent him from Messrs Oddenino's Hotel and Restaurant, Limited; and what reply he has made to it.

Mr. Isaacs

The hon. Member for Darwen (Mr. Prescott) has kindly sent me a copy of the documents in question. I have noted its contents and no action on my part seems called for.

Mr. Shepherd

Will the Minister say what steps he took to check the accuracy of the information which he gave? Does he realise that this affects the prestige of the House, and will he give an undertaking that he will not make such reckless statements in future to bolster up a weak case?

Mr. Isaacs

The hon. and gallant Gentleman has said that I made a reckless statement and has asked what steps 1 took to check up on it. I got that information from a source that is completely reliable. I have received information since which confirms the statement that I made. The document issued by Oddenino's, a copy of which has not reached me, except by courtesy of the hon. Member for Darwen, completely and deliberately ignores the statement which I made against them, and, therefore, I am not called upon to. answer anything further.

Mr. Prescott

is it not obvious that the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman is inaccurate and misleading and has done great harm to this firm? In the circumstances, should he not withdraw that statement?

Mr. Isaacs

As to taking greater care in the future, I am always prepared to accept the results of my own actions. If I do anything that is careless, I will put up with it. I am satisfied that great care was taken in this case. Perhaps the hon. Gentlemen will read this statement from Oddenino's. They will remember that I said that Oddenino's made use of a form which contains certain information which I gave to the House. In the statement which they have issued, and which they have got their people to sign, there is not one word about that form at all. They have not dealt with one charge of the case which I made against them. What is more, 1 am prepared tosubstantiate that statement if called upon to do so.

Earl Winterton

In view of the fact that this statement is refuted by the whole of the persons to whom he originally applied it, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it is in accordance with the ordinary practices of this House that he should either withdraw or make a further statement, explaining what he meant when he made the original statement?

Mr. Isaacs

The Noble Lord, who so frequently tells us about the procedure of this House—

Earl Winterton

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Am I not entitled to put a question to a Minister without the Minister dealing with a matter which is entirely irrelevant in his reply? Am I not entitled to have an answer to my question?

Mr. Kirkwood

Further to that point of Order. Is it in Order for the Noble Lord to tell the Minister the way in which he should answer a question?

Mr. Speaker

The right hon. Gentleman is entitled to raise a point of Order, but he must not tell the Minister how to answer a question. I did not catch any remark made by the Minister which was offensive.

Earl Winterton

My point of Order was this: My experience may be a short one, but I have yet to learn that a Minister replying to a question can give a lecture on thesubject of procedure and not answer the question. I never mentioned procedure. Shall I be.entitled to ask a further supplementary question of the right hon. Gentleman, and ask him what he knows about procedure? May I have an answer to that?

Mr. Speaker

The Noble Lord should put a supplementary question to the Minister; I cannot answer it.

Mr. Isaacs

Perhaps the Noble Lord will allow me to answer first the last question which he put. It is because I take notice of his lectures on procedure that I was going to suggest that there are ways and means of—

Earl Winterton

Mr. Speaker, are we to have a new procedure at Question Time by which a Minister can give lectures to the House on matters of procedure? May I have an answer to that point of Order?

Mr. Speaker

I cannot tell a Minister how he is to answer a question.

Mr. Pritt

May I ask if we can have a special day allotted to the Noble Lord?

Mr. Speaker

I think it would be as well to go on with the next Question.

Mr. Bowles

On a point of Order. Did you not, Mr. Speaker, call the next Question on the Order Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Evesham (Mr. De la Bere)?

Earl Winterton rose

—

Mr. Speaker

The Noble Lord cannot put another point of Order before a previous point of Order has been dealt with.

Mr. Shepherd

I beg to give notice that owing to the very unsatisfactory nature of the reply by the Minister I propose to raise this matter again on the Adjournment.

65. Squadron-Leader Emrys Roberts

asked the Minister ofLabour what inquiries under Section 2 (1) (b) of the Catering Wages Act, 1943, were made by the Catering Wages Commission in order to obtain the views of Welsh associations and bodies before issuing their Report on the Development of the Catering Holiday Tourist Services, 1946.

Mr. Isaacs

I am informed by the Commission that in the course of their inquiries they took into consideration the views of the Welsh Reconstruction Advisory Council as expressed in their published report. In addition, many of the national organisations mentioned in the Appendix to the Commission's report as having been consulted include Wales in the scope of their activities.

Squadron-Leader Roberts

Can the Minister inform the House what was the nationality of the members ofthe Catering Wages Commission and how many come from Wales?

Mr. Isaacs

I cannot say that from memory, but perhaps if the hon. and gallant Gentleman looks at the signatures he would know their nationality better than I do.