§ Colonel Crosthwaite-EyreI beg to move, in page 37, line 12, to leave out sub-paragraph (2).
This Amendment is consequential on one moved previously. We cannot conceive why these powers should be considered necessary. The powers which are taken here seem completely unreal in relation to anything which may be needed by the Treasury. If the Committee read this paragraph, they will see that practically anything except the shooting of an offender at dawn can be done by order of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I have no doubt that the Chancellor, like myself, would be unwilling to get up at dawn to shoot anybody, but I would emphasise the position which we have reached on this Bill. The Government wished to secure powers to do anything they like and when asked whether it is necessary to have these powers, they always say, or at least, the Chancellor always says, "We may catch a crook." I am prepared to grant the Chancellor that if there is anybody who can catch a crook, he can. In fact if ever he were on my trail. I should come down at once. But because that is so, it does not follow that these powers are 923 necessary This paragraph gives powers, not to catch a crook, but to enable any possible successor to the Chancellor, be he on this side or the other side, to inflict on the ordinary citizen of this country restrictions which are quite out of place in regard to anything which this Bill is designed to effect.
We on this side admit that it is essential for any Chancellor of the Exchequer to have powers under which he can defend the sterling currency, but that does not mean that any Chancellor is entitled to ask for powers which may catch a crook. I must say that if ever there were a betting tax, I should be prepared to back the right hon. Gentleman against all runners. But he must limit himself in his ambitions to catch a crook and act only where it is necessary, in keeping with the general trend of the legislation of this country. To ask for these powers in this Schedule is going farther than is normal. A provision of this sort, or at least something very similar to it, was included in the last Bill which the Chancellor brought before the House, the Borrowing (Control of Investments) Hill, and as a result of considerable discussion, it was excluded. Why does the Chancellor consider it necessary to bring it up again? Is he not satisfied that he ran the horse last time as far as it could run? [Interruption.] Of course, it is known that hon. Members on that side of the Committee encourage greyhound racing, but that is beside the point. Why is it necessary to bring back this particular provision? It has failed once, and we on this side feel that the Bill without this sort of provision would be far more efficient and far more liable to get the confidence of the people of this country as a whole.
The Solicitor-GeneralThe hon. and gallant Gentleman has been very vocal in his complaint with regard to these powers. I hope he will give me his attention. The provision which confers these powers on the Government was modelled on Section 26 of the Firearms Act. That Act was passed in 1937. A Conservative Government apparently was quite ready to assume these powers, but in point of fact that Conservative Government of 1937 which assumed these powers was not creating any violent precedent, because the same powers, or virtually the same powers, were included in the Customs 924 (Consolidation) Act of 1876. If the hon. Gentleman will take the trouble to look at Sections 182, 184 and 205 of that Act, passed in 1876, he will find the source of inspiration which has been drawn upon for these powers. He is discovering nothing very new. He referred to his inexperience. I do not know in what particular sphere. I suggest he should get more experience of Conservative legislation before he criticises a Labour Government for doing what a Conservative Government has done before.
§ Mr. StanleyI hope that I may be excused for performing for a short while what is a public duty, and that is trying to bring the Socialist Government up to date. I find it unnecessary to go back to 1876. I think that, of course, was about the time of Marx. No doubt for hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite that is a period to which they turn for their inspiration. But may I ask the learned Solicitor-General to look at a rather more recent experience? He may recollect a Bill called the Borrowing Bill. It started, I think, by being called the Control of Investments Bill, but during its passage through this House it changed its name. In my recollection, there was a provision similar to this in that Bill I think I am not wrong in saying that we then made an appeal to the Solicitor-General, as we are doing now. We warned him that, although he of course was given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer no flexibility—"His not to reason why, his but to do or die"—that when the Bill got to another place, and came under the review of the Lord Chancellor, who exacts more and more respect for his legal decisions, the Chancellor of the Exchequer might suffer a reverse. I think I am correct in saying that either in its passage through this House, or in another place, this provision was withdrawn from the Borrowing Bill.
§ The Solicitor-General indicated dissent.
§ Mr. StanleyThe hon. and learned Gentleman says that is not so—that it is still in the Borrowing Bill.
§ The Solicitor-General indicated assent.
§ Mr. StanleyThis is a matter of considerable importance—far more recent than 1876. Will the learned Solicitor-General say "Yes" or "No"? Would it not be better if, in order to avoid putting either the right hon. Gentleman in an 925 ambiguous position in this House, or the Lord Chancellor in an awkward position in another place, the learned Solicitor-General said that he would look up this most respectable precedent of the Borrowing Bill of last year? Will he look it up and see if in fact it is the case that during our proceedings a provision similar to this was either withdrawn or amended?
| Division No. 34. | AYES | 12.15 a.m. |
| Adams, Richard (Balham) | Farthing, W.J. | Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford) |
| Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South) | Field, Captain W. J. | Noel-Buxton, Lady |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. | Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.) | O'Brien, T. |
| Allen, A. C. (Bosworth) | Follick, M. | Oldfield, W. H. |
| Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) | Foot, M. M. | Oliver, G. H. |
| Attewell, H. C. | Gaitskell, H. T. N. | Orbach, M. |
| Awbery, S. S. | Gibson, C. W. | Paget, R. T. |
| Ayrton Gould, Mrs B. | Gilzean, A. | Palmer. A. M. F. |
| Bacon, Miss A. | Granville, J. E. (Consett) | Parker, J. |
| Baird, J. | Gordon-Walker, P. C. | Parkin, B. T. |
| Barstow P. G. | Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood) | Pearson, A. |
| Barton, C. | Grey, C. F. | Perrins, W. |
| Battley, J. R. | Grierson, E | Piratin, P |
| Bechervaise, A. E. | Griffiths, D (Rother Valley) | Platts-Mills, J. F. F. |
| Benson, G. | Gunter, R. J. | Pocle, Major Cecil (Lichfield) |
| Bing, G. H. C. | Haire, John E (Wycombe) | Popplewell, E. |
| Blackburn, A. R. | Hale, Leslie | Porter, E. (Warrington) |
| Blenkinsop, A. | Hall, W. G. | Pritt, D. N. |
| Blyton W. R. | Hamilton, Lieut-Col. R. | Randall, H. E. |
| Boardman, H. | Hardy, E. A. | Ranger, J. |
| Bowden, Flg.-Offr H. W. | Hastings, Dr Somerville | Robens, A. |
| Bowen, R. | Hewitson, Capt. M. | Roberts Goronwy (Caernarvonshire) |
| Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton) | Holman, P. | Robertson, J. J. (Berwick) |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge) | Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth) | Royle, C. |
| Braddock, T. (Mitcham) | House, G. | Sargood, R. |
| Bramall, Major E. A. | Hoy, J. | Scollan, T. |
| Brook, D (Halifax) | Hudson, J. H. (Eating, W.) | Scott-Elliot, W. |
| Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell) | Hushes, Hector (Aberdeen. N.) | Shurmer. P |
| Brown, T. J. (Ince) | Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.) | Silverman, J. (Erdington) |
| Bruce, Maj. D. W. T. | Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme) | Simmons, C. J. |
| Burden, T. W. | Hynd, H. (Hackney. C.) | Skeffington, A. M. |
| Burks, W. A. | Jay, D P T | Smith, C. (Colchester) |
| Callaghan James | Jeger G. (Winchester) | Smith. H. N. (Nottingham, S.) |
| Champion, A.J. | Jeger, Dr S. W. (St Pancras. S.E.) | Smith S. H.(Hull,. S W.) |
| Clitherow, Dr. R. | Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools) | Snow, Capt. J. W. |
| Cobb, F. A. | Kesnan, W. | Solley, L. J. |
| Cooks, F. S. | Kenyon, C. | Soskice, Maj. Sir F. |
| Coldrick, W. | Key, C. W. | Stewart Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.) |
| Collick, P. | Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E. | Stokes, R. R. |
| Collindridge, F. | Kinley, J. | Stubbs, A. E. |
| Collins. V. J. | Kirby, B. V. | Symonds, A. L. |
| Colman, Miss G. M. | Lang, G. | Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield) |
| Comyns, Dr. L. | Layers, S. | Taylor. R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G. | Levy, B. W. | Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin) |
| Corbet, Mrs F. K. (Camb'wett, N. W.) | Lindgren G. S. | Thomas, John R (Dover) |
| Corlett, Dr. J. | Longden, F. | Thomas, George (Cardiff) |
| Cove, W. G. | Lynd A. W. | Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton) |
| Crawley, A. | McAllister, G. | Tolley, L. |
| Crossman, R. H. S. | McGhee, H. G. | Wadsworth, G. |
| Daggar, G | Mack J. O. | Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.) |
| Daines, P. | Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull. N.W.) | Webb, M. (Bradford, C.) |
| Dalton, Rt. Hon H. | McLeavy, F. | White. C. F. (Derbyshire, W.) |
| Daviet, Edward (Burslem) | MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles) | Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. |
| Davies, Ernest (Enfield) | Macpherson, T (Romford) | Wilkes, L. |
| Davies, Harold (Leek) | Mainwaring, W. H. | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Deer, O. | Mallalieu, J. P. W. | Willey, O. G. (C'eve'and) |
| Diamond, J. | Maning, Mrs L. (Epping) | Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove) |
| Dobbie, W. | Marquand, H. A. | Williams, W. R. (Heston) |
| Dodds, N. N. | Mathers, G. | Willis, E. |
| Donovan, T. | Medland, H. M. | Wills, Mrs. E. A. |
| Driberg, T. E. N. | Mellish, R. J. | Woods, G. S. |
| Dye, S. | Mddleton, Mrs L. | Yates, V. F. |
| Ede. Rt. Hon. J. C. | Mitchison, Maj. G. R. | Zilliacus, K. |
| Edwards N (Caerphilly) | Morris, P. (Swansea. W.) | |
| Evans, E. (Lowestoft) | Mort, D. L. | |
| Evans, John (Ogmore) | Moyle, A | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury) | Murray, J. D. | Mr. Joseph Henderson and |
| Ewart, R. | Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford) | Mr. Hannan. |
§ Will he at a further stage reconsider this position, and bring himself into line on what happened last year?
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 199; Noes, 83.
| NOES. | ||
| Agnew, Cmdr, P. G. | Fletcher, W. (Bury) | Neven-Spence, Sir B. |
| Amory, D. Heathcoal | Foster, J. G. (Northwich) | Nield, B. (Chester) |
| Assheton, Rt. Hon. R | Fox, Sir G. | Noble, Comdr. A. H. P. |
| Astor, Hon. M. | Fraser, Sir I. (Lensdale) | Peto, Brig C. H. M. |
| Baldwin, A. E. | Fyfe, Rt Hon Sir D. P. M. | Pitman, I. J. |
| Barlow, Sir J. | Gage, C. | Prescott, Stanley |
| Birth, Nigel | Gates, Maj E. E. | Price-White, Lt. Col. O. |
| Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells) | Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. G | Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. |
| Bossom, A. C. | Grant, Lady | Rayner, Brig. R. |
| Bower, N. | Gridley, Sir A. | Renton, D. |
| Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. | Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge) | Roberts, H. (Handsworth) |
| Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr, J. G. | Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich) | Sanderson, Sir F. |
| Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. | Hope, Lord J. | Shepherd, W. S (Bucklow) |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. | Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport) | Stanley, Rt. Hon. O. |
| Carson, E. | Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N J. | Stoddart-Scott, Col. M. |
| Clarke, Col. R. S. | Joynson-Hicks, Lt.-Cdr Hon L. W. | Strauss, H. G. (English Universities) |
| Clifton-Brawn, Lt.-Col. G | Keeling, E. H. | Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray) |
| Conant, Maj. R. J. E. | Lambert, Hon. G. | Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne) |
| Cooper-Key, E. M. | Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. R. | Teeling, William |
| Corbett, Lieut. Col. (J. (Ludlow) | Lindsay, M (Solihull) | Thomas, J P. L (Hereford) |
| Crosthwaite Eyre, Col. O. E. | Lucas, Major Sir J. | Touche, G. C. |
| Cuthbert, W. N. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir H. | Turton, R. H. |
| Davidson, Viscountess | Mackeson, Brig. H. R. | Wheatley, Colonel M. J. |
| De la Bère, R. | Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Digby, S. W. | Maitland, Comdr. J. W. | York, C |
| Eccles, D. M. | Manningham-Buller, R. E. | Young Sir A S. L. (Partick) |
| Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. | Marlowe, A. A. H. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Erroll, F. J. | Marshall, D. (Bodmin) | Mr. Drewe and Major Ramsay. |
| Mellor, Sir J |
§ Schedule agreed to.