HC Deb 09 December 1946 vol 431 cc845-54

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre

This Clause, as drafted, appears to give powers to the Treasury quite beyond anything that should be exercised. As I read it, it enables the Treasury to make an order whereby anyone who has been resident in the United Kingdom, and who goes for any reason to the scheduled territories, and happens subsequently to leave the scheduled territories, is deprived of anything he has held in his previous career in the scheduled territories, or the United Kingdom. I will give a couple of instances. An employee of one of the great Anglo-South African firms may have 'been resident in the United Kingdom. He goes out to the South African office. He is all right so far, and he is entitled to the proceeds of any moneys he may have collected in the United Kingdom, or any dividends on shares he may hold in this Kingdom, or in South Africa. But, supposing that the Anglo-South African company decides to send him outside the scheduled territories to, for instance, a subsidiary in South America; the Committee will know that in a great many cases South African companies, particularly mining companies, have subsidiaries in South America. For instance, the man may be detailed to go to Peru, to investigate a new oilfield, or take some part in connection with one of the existing oilfields. He is then subject to the full rigours of Clause 40, and it is possible for the Treasury to debar him from receiving any of the proceeds, either of the moneys he has left in the United Kingdom or, alternatively, of what he has earned, in South Africa. Equally it is possible, if he is in the type of job where he has to spend six months in South America and six months in South Africa, that he may move his family, for reasons of cost, to South America. It is possible for the Treasury to stop that man being able to send his wife and children any money.

There is a further case. Suppose a skilled worker has gone out to South Africa, for the purpose of taking a job in a large garage, or to join a building business. Suppose he becomes an employee of one of the great South African corporations. It will be impossible for him to take any appointment under the corporation unless that appointment is confined to duty within the scheduled territories. This Clause places a hopeless burden on anyone who, for one reason or another, may think his life will be better developed if he lives in the scheduled territories rather than in this Kingdom. I think that these wide powers, stated in this way, in a Measure which is to become a permanent piece of legislation, go far beyond anything which is needed. Obviously the purpose of the Clause is to prevent those who may have money or capital emigrating to a scheduled territory, and flying from that scheduled territory so as to get away with their capital. But it seems quite ridiculous to place this Clause permanently on the Statute Book, in order to stop that loophole.

7.45 p.m.

I think it is no matter of controversy in the Committee that for many generations it has been the custom for younger sons to go out to the Dominions, and they have added enormously to the wealth of this country by their efforts and ingenuity. This Clause will be penal, because if any such person goes out and joins any concern except one which will automatically guarantee him his future within the scheduled territories, he is not able to take anything of what he has earned either in this country or in his temporary position in South Africa. I think the Chancellor should be willing to recognise that position, and to make a concession. I am not certain whether he was in the Committee, when I talked about South African companies with subsidiaries in South America, but I am sure he will appreciate that point. There are great Peruvian or Venezuelan companies, all of which are controlled in the United Kingdom directly or indirectly from South Africa, and many people in this country leave to take up mining jobs and go out to South Africa. Under this Clause they are subject to lose every penny they possess either in this country or in South Africa when they leave there. I hope that between now and the Report stage the Chancellor will look at the Clause again.

Mr. Glenvil Hall

I cannot help thinking that the hon. and gallant Member for New Forest and Christchurch (Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre) is labouring under a misapprehension as to just what the Clause means. It does not deal with people who reside in South Africa. It deals with people resident in the United Kingdom who go outside the scheduled territories, and South Africa is inside the sterling area. Otherwise, the example given by the hon. and gallant Member may be said to hold true. A man may go to Bolivia or some other State in South America. Obviously we cannot let a man go from this country to a foreign country outside the scheduled territories and allow him to take anything he likes in the way of securities and capital assets. We must keep control and regulate the flow of exchange and capital assets from this country to territories of that kind.

We realise that in these postwar years people want to move about the world, and that some desire to emigrate. Unfortunately all do not desire to emigrate to the Commonwealth and Empire. I am glad that many of them wish to go to Canada, Australia, South Africa, or Rhodesia, but some desire to go elsewhere. We make provision for them to go if so minded, but we have to make sure that they are really genuine emigrants. Otherwise it would be very easy for someone, who wanted to get a slice of his capital outside the country, to pretend that he was going to reside permanently in, say, the United States, or Canada, and by that means, unless there were controls, to get the whole of his assets out of this country by what, after all, would be a trick. Where a genuine emigrant desires to leave these shores, we make provision for him and his family to take sufficient assets to help them to settle down and until we are certain that they genuinely mean to settle wherever they have gone.

The period of settlement to establish overseas residence, though not fixed and unalterable, is four years, and the sum allocated for that period is up to £5,000. Such a person would of course be able to draw any dividends that accrued to him on securities and assets in this country. At the moment in present world circumstances, we think these provisions not unreasonable. If, in certain circumstances it was found that for good and sufficient reasons the £5,000 was not enough, obviously the Treasury would be willing to see what further could be done. Therefore, I hope that with that explanation, which I venture to think puts a different complexion on the matter than that put by the hon. and gallant Gentleman, he will not press the matter further.

Mr. J. Foster

Could the Financial Secretary say what happens after the four years?

Mr. Glenvil Hall

Of course the four years are not up yet—[Laughter.] I was not attempting to be humorous.

Mr. J. Foster

The hon. Gentleman was not attempting—he succeeded.

Mr. Glenvil Hall

All I would say is that we are starting off one step at a time. At the moment about four years ahead is a? far as we can see. By then conditions may have changed both in this country and others so that regulations can be considerably lightened and many relaxations brought into being. For the next four years, therefore, generally speaking, we lay down an upper limit of £5,000 for that period. The person concerned may take perhaps £1,500 of it with him; it depends what he is going to do. These things are subject to the discretion of the Treasury which uses its common sense, and desires, above everything else, to help the people who want to emigrate in this way. But we have for the time being placed an overall limit of £5,000 during the next four years. What will happen after that I cannot yet say.

Mr. J. S. C. Reid

What the Financial Secretary has said may or may not be reasonable, but it bears little or no relation to the contents of this Clause. Let me point out that the Clause enables the Treasury, in the case of a person resident in the United Kingdom, who leaves the scheduled territories, to direct that all payments to his credit, in this country or out of this country, shall be subject to such restrictions as may be specified. That is to say, this Clause enables the Treasury to prevent any money, capital or interest, being paid to the credit of a man who emigrates contrary to their desires. That was not the impression the Financial Secretary gave, to me at least, or I think to other hon. Members of the Committee, in his speech. How can he justify a provision under which dividends in this country are not to be paid into a man's bank in this country because the man has chosen to go abroad contrary to the views of the Treasury? That is what the Clause says. How is it justified? To begin with, a man cannot leave the country at all; the Home Secretary and the Foreign Secretary and others see to that—

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede)

I do not.

Mr. Reid

Unless he has some reasonable ground for going, he does not get a passport. If he has got a passport and visa and all the other necessities, why should the Treasury have power to say, "Your money in this country is not to be paid into your bank in this country if you have gone abroad contrary to our views"? That is what the Financial Secretary is taking power to do. How does he justify it?

Mr. Glenvil Hall

One justifies it as one justifies equally stringent powers in other Clauses which we have already passed. I thought it was now crystal clear to all Members in the Committee that in this Bill we take stringent and drastic powers and then propose by exemption orders and regulations of one kind and another to mitigate them, according to the situation from time to time. There is no other way of making provision for this kind of control except by the method laid down in the Bill. While it is perfectly true that the Clause is, as the hon. and gallant Member said, very stringent, they have in fact been more stringent than this during the war. We are continuing the Defence Regulations in this Clause, but we hope as time goes on, and conditions improve, that they can be considerably lightened in the interests of the individuals concerned.

Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre

Would the Financial Secretary answer one question? I thank him for the answer he has given me so far. I spoke about the employees of one of the big mining companies. It is common knowledge in all parts of this Committee that in this business of mining engineering there is great competition, at the moment, between American and British subjects, particularly in South America. I am certain that the Chancellor knows that it is the object of the Anglo-South African firms to get British mining engineering experts into that area. They are being subjected to great pressure from America against that policy. The Financial Secretary has said nothing of the case I gave him of the engineer who goes to South Africa, and is then drafted, in the normal course of events, with his family, say to Venezuela. Is he still bound by the provision that he can take only £5,000 for four years, or is he allowed, as he is the employee of a British-owned company, to take all his assets in order that he may set up his new home, etc.?

Mr. J. Foster

I see the object which, according to the Financial Secretary, the Government are trying to accomplish. I understood from the Chancellor's statement, on Clause 31, that it is the intention to continue non-resident accounts. The restriction of payments that may be made to, or by a non-resident were described as being under non-resident account. I can understand that one of the objects of the Clause, in conjunction with the use of the power under Clause 41, is that when a person leaves this country and becomes a non-resident, it is desired that his account should be blocked, and in that sense it becomes a non-resident account. Where the Clause goes too far is that besides prescribing what is a non-resident account, the Treasury can also in the case of a person who has not emigrated, or a person who is innocently abroad, put the most severe restrictions on his account and securities. The first class upon whom restrictions are put is that of the person who lives here, and whose account is decided to be a non-resident account. The other class is that of the person who leaves and who may have been a resident and in whose case, in the opinion of the Treasury, this is necessary for the defence of our currency. I suggest that there might be some words in the Clause to the effect that the Treasury may "if they deem it necessary for the purposes of this Act, to safeguard the currency." I am putting it very badly; I am not trying to draft it. But if there were words which showed that they were only doing it in circumstances where it was necessary to protect the currency, I should have thought that that would go a long way towards meeting the objections which we have expressed. As I have said, I was in Paris yesterday. At the moment this provision is so wide that it could allow the Treasury to block all my accounts as from yesterday.

Mr. Dalton

We have not done so.

Mr. Foster

No, but I say there is no need to take such wide powers. I should have thought it would be sufficient to put something in the Clause to say where, in the opinion of the Treasury, this is necessary for preventing the transfer of capital and money abroad.

8.0 p.m.

Mr. Dalton

If we did that, in this Clause we should have to do it in every Clause. There is no more need for me to repeat the reasons for the Bill whilst discussing this Clause, than there has been on any of the preceding Clauses. These powers are to protect our exchange position. The argument is essentially the same on Clause after Clause. These powers are wide and strong, because here and there there may be a crook to be laid by the heels. All these amiable and excellent engineers of whom the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for New Forest and Christchurch (Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre) speaks, will be allowed to move about without restriction.

Mr. Assheton

We are not satisfied with the answer which the right hon. Gentleman has given. He has made no case

Division No. 31. AYES 8.4 p. m
Adams, Richard (Balham) Cluse, W. S. Goodrich, H. E.
Allen, A. C. (Bosworth) Cobb, F. A. Gordon-Walker, P. C.
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Cocks, F. S. Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)
Alpass, J. H. Collick, P. Grenfell, D. R.
Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) Colman, Miss G. M. Grey, C. F.
Attewell, H. C. Comyns, Dr. L. Grierson, E.
Austin, H. L. Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G. Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)
Awbery, S. S. Corbet, Mrs. F K. (Camb'well, N.W) Gunter, R. J.
Ayles, W. H. Corlett, Dr. J. Hale, Leslie
Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B. Cove, W. G. Hall, W. G.
Bacon, Miss A. Crossman, R. H. S. Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R
Baird, J. Daggar, G. Hannan, W. (Maryhill)
Balfour, A. Dairies, P. Hardy, E. A.
Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J. Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. Harrison, J.
Barstow, P. G. Davies, Edward (Burslem) Hastings, Dr. Somerville
Barton, C. Davies, Ernest (Enfield) Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)
Battley, J. R. Davies, Harold (Leek) Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)
Bechervaise, A. E. Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) Hewitson, Capt. M.
Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J. Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Hobson, C. R.
Benson, G. Deer, G. Holman, P.
Berry, H. Diamond, J. Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)
Bing, G. H. C. Dobbie, W. Horabin, T. L
Binns, J. Donovan, T. House, G.
Blackburn, A. R. Driberg, T. E. N. Hoy, J.
Blenkinsop, A. Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich) Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Blyton, W. R. Dyes, S. Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)
Boardman, H. Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)
Bowden, Flg. Offr. H. W. Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough, E.) Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)
Bowen, R. Edwards, John (Blackburn) Hynd, Rt. Hon. J. B. (Attercliffe)
Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton) Edwards, N. (Caerphilly) Irving, W. J.
Braddock, T. (Mitcham) Edwards. W. J. (Whitechapel) Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A
Bramall, Major E. A. Evans, E. (Lowestoft) Jay, D. P. T.
Brook, D. (Halifax) Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury) Jeger, G (Winchester)
Brown, T. J. (Ince) Ewart, R. Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)
Bruce, Maj. D. W. T. Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.) Jones, J. H. (Bolton)
Burke, W. A. Follick, M. Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)
Byers, Frank Foot, M. M. Keenan, W
Callaghan, James Fraser, T. (Hamilton) Kenyon, G.
Castle, Mrs. B. A Gaitskell, H. T. N. Key, C. W.
Chamberlain, R. A. Ganley, Mrs. C. S. Kinley, J.
Champion, A. J. Gibson, C. W. Kirby, B. V.
Chater, D. Gilzean, A. Lang, G.
Chetwynd, G. R. Glanville, J. E (Consett) Lavers, S.
Clitherow, Dr. R. Gooch, E. G. Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.

whatever for taking the very strong powers which this Clause gives. So far as I can see, there is no suggestion that the payments in question which are made to the man's account in Great Britain, for example, should be treated in any different sense from the payments made to his account outside the scheduled territories. The Chancellor has not been able to illustrate in any way the reasons which prompt him to ask for such extreme powers. I do not think it fair to compare this Clause with previous Clauses. This is an example of the Treasury taking powers which are stronger than those granted in any Clause which we have considered so far, powers which are far out of relation to any of the others. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider this matter before the Report stage. If he is unable to make that promise, I am afraid we must divide against this Clause.

Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 269; Noes, 88.

Leslie, J. R. Parkin, B. T. Summerskill, Dr Edith
Levy, B. W. Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe) Symonds, A. L
Lewis, A. W J. (Upton) Paton, J. (Norwich) Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)
Lewis, J. (Bolton) Pearson, A. Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Lindgren, G. S. Peart, Capt. T. F. Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)
Lipson, D. L. Perrins, W. Thomas, John R. (Dover)
Lipton, Lt.-Col. M Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield) Thomas, George (Cardiff)
Longden, F. Popplewell, E. Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)
Lyne, A. W. Porter, E. (Warrington) Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)
McAdam, W. Porter, G. (Leeds) Tiffany, S.
McEntee, V La T. Proctor, W. T. Tolley, L.
McGhee, H. G. Pursey, Cmdr. H Turner-Samuels, M.
Mack, J. D. Randall, H. E. Ungoed-Thomas, L.
McKay, J. (Wallsend) Ranger, J. Usborne, Henry
Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.) Rankin, J. Viant, S. P.
McLeavy, F. Rees-Williams, D. R. Wadsworth, G.
MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles) Reeves, J. Walkden, E.
McNeil, Rt. Hon. H. Reid, T. (Swindon) Walker, G. H.
Macpharson, T. (Romford) Rhodes, H Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)
Mainwaring, W. H. Robens, A. Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)
Mallalieu, J. P. W. Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth) Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)
Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping) Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire) Weitzman, D.
Marquand, H. A. Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.) Wells, W. T. (Walsall)
Mathers, G. Robertson, J. J. (Berwick) West, D. G.
Mayhew, C. P. Rogers, G. H. R. Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.
Medland, H. M Royle, C. White, C. F. (Derbyshire, W.)
Mellish, R. J. Sargood, R White, H. (Derbyshire, N. E.)
Messer, F. Scollan, T. Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W
Middleton, Mrs. L. Scott-Elliot, W. Wigg, Col. G. E.
Mitchison, Maj. G. R Shackleton, Wing-Cdr. E. A. A. Wilkes, L.
Monslow, W. Sharp, Granville Wilkins, W. A.
Moody, A. S. Shurmer, P. Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)
Morgan, Dr. H. B. Silverman, J. (Erdington) Williams, D. J. (Neath)
Morris, P. (Swansea, W.) Silverman, S. S. (Nelson) Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)
Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.) Simmons, C. J. Williams, W. R. (Heston)
Mort, D. L. Smith, H. N (Nottingham, S.) Willis, E.
Moyle, A. Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.) Wills, Mrs. E. A.
Naylor, T. E. Snow, Capt. J. W. Wise, Major F. J
Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.) Solley, L. J. Woods, G. S.
Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford) Sorensen, R. W. Wyatt, W.
Noel-Buxton, Lady Soskice, Maj. Sir F Yates, V. F.
Oldfield, W. H. Sparks, J. A. Young, Sir R. (Newton)
Oliver, G. H. Stamford, W Zilliacus, K.
Paget, R. T. Steele, T.
Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth) Stephen, C TELLERS FOR THE AYES
Pargiter, G. A. Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.) Mr. Collindridge and
Parker, J. Stubbs, A. E. Mr. Coldrick.
NOES
Agnew, Cmdr. P. G. Gates, Maj. E. E. Nield, B. (Chester)
Amory, D. Heathcoat George, Maj. Rt. Hn. G. Lloyd (P'ke) Peto, Brig C. H. M.
Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. G. Pitman, I. J.
Astor, Hon. M. Grant, Lady Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)
Baldwin, A. E. Gridley, Sir A. Prescott, Stanley
Barlow, Sir J Hart, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge) Price-White, Lt.-Col. D.
Birch, Nigel Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V. Rayner, Brig. R.
Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells) Head, Brig. A. H. Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)
Boyd Carpenter, J. A. Hinchingbrooke, Viscount Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead)
Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G. Hollis, M. C. Renton, D.
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich) Roberts, H. (Handsworth)
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport) Robinson, Wing-Comdr. Roland
Butcher, H. W. Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J. Sanderson, Sir F.
Carson, E. Lambert, Hon. G. Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)
Challen, C. Lancaster, Col. C. G. Spearman, A. C. M.
Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. Stanley, Rt. Hon. O.
Conant, Maj. R. J. E. Lennox-Boyd, A. T. Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)
Cooper-Key, E. M. Lindsay, M. (Solihull) Sutcliffe, H.
Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow) Macdonald, Sir P. (Is. of Wight) Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. Mackeson, Brig. H. R. Turton, R. H.
Dodds-Parker, A. D. Maclean, Brig. F. H. R. (Lancaster) Walker-Smith, D.
Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W. Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley) Watt, Sir G. S. Harvie
Dower, Lt.-Col. A. V. G. (Penrith) Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries) Wheatley, Colonel M. J.
Drewe, C. Maitland, Comdr. J. W. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Eccles, D. M Manningham-Buller, R. E. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Erroll, F. J. Marshall, D. (Bodmin) York, C.
Fletcher, W. (Bury) Mellor, Sir J.
Foster, J. G. (Northwich) Molson, A. H. E. TELLERS FOR THE NOES
Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale) Morris-Jones, Sir H. Sir Arthur Young and
Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M. Mott-Radclyffe, Maj. C. E Major Ramsay.
Gage, C. Neven-Spence, Sir B.