HC Deb 04 December 1946 vol 431 cc390-2

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Birch

I have one question in regard to Subsection (2), under which the. Treasury take powers to direct anybody to deposit gold or foreign currency in the custody of such banker as may be specified in the direction. I would like to know why that power to direct to a particular bank is taken, and not merely power to direct to an authorised deposit or authorised dealer.

Mr. C. Williams

Under Subsection (1) do I understand that nobody is able to hold gold coin? Is it illegal to have any gold coin in one's possession? I know the sale of them affects the Chancellor, but is it or is it not illegal for a person to hold a gold sovereign? Where do we stand on that? Supposing a sovereign or an old guinea is given by one person to another, where does he stand? I conclude there is some way of dealing with this, but I cannot find it. For instance, ancient Greek coins, which are gold, have a very great value. What is the position in regard to these matters? This is something which affects a very large number of people I would like some answer to that if I could have one.

6.0 p.m.

Mr. Glenvil Hall

I think the answer to-the hon. Member for Flint (Mr. Birch), who put the first question, is that the reason why a direction can name a given bank to which the payments should be made, is purely one of administrative convenience. It is obvious that a destination must be given, and in our view there is nothing wrong or unreasonable in naming; what that destination should be, in order to help everybody concerned. So far as the sovereign on one's watch chain is concerned, it might be that, technically, it would be covered by the provisions of the Bill, which, quite frankly, in the ultimate are stringent. Nevertheless, it will be the fact that the Treasury will, by order and regulation, make a good many relaxations, and this, most certainly, will be one. The Treasury would not dream of making the keeping of a few coins by an individual, either as museum pieces or for sentimental reasons, an offence under the Bill.

Mr. C. Williams

It is not a question of ownership. It is a question of sale. Will an ordinary sale—by Christie's, for instance—be quite legal, or will it not be?

Mr. Glenvil Hall

Oh, yes. If an in dividual has coins of that kind and wants to sell them—and individuals still have sovereigns rucked away—a jeweller or dealer will sell them, although not an authorised dealer; and by regulation and order it will be quite legal for the ordinary man in the street to deal in that way with his jeweller, or at a shop which caters for that kind of thing.

Mr. Assheton

My hon. Friend the Member for Flint (Mr. Birch) put a question to the Financial Secretary, to which he gave us an answer. I am bound to say I was not at all satisfied with the answer, although I do not know if my hon. Friend was. The Financial Secretary's answer was, that it is administratively convenient. Why is it administratively convenient? I should have thought it would be as convenient to draft the Clause in such a way as not to direct a person in those circumstances to give that gold or currency to be kept in the custody of some authorised person. The hon. Gentleman gave us no answer on that point. I do not understand myself why he wishes to say here, which specific depositary is to be the recipient. Could he give us a rather fuller answer?

Mr. Dalton

I would assume that, normally, it would be agreed between the two parties. I think that there is some reason, for administrative convenience, to have an order of a definite character, but I do not think that at all excludes an agreement, as to the form of the order, between the Treasury and the person concerned. I should think that, in practice, no grave difficulty would arise.

Mr. Assheton

I wonder if the right hon. Gentleman will look into it again before the Report stage?

Mr. Dalton

Without commitment, of course, we will have a look at it again, to see if relaxation could be greater.

Mr. J. Foster

I should like to ask whether, at the moment, there is any relaxation?

Mr. Dalton

I am advised that there is at the present moment. There was the case which was quoted of that old Greek coin. I am advised that it is perfectly proper under present arrangements. Even if it is not we shall see the thing is regularised.

Mr. C. Williams

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his reply. I was only trying to help him, and I expect he is as grateful to me for my help as I am to him for his answer.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.