HC Deb 17 April 1946 vol 421 cc2855-64

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Hr. Joseph Henderson.]

11.47 p.m.

Earl Winterton

I rise for the purpose of putting some questions of great importance to the Secretary of State for War of which I have given him previous notice in writing. I only propose to detain the House for a few minutes, but I hope, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that some of my hon. Friends, who have the same views on this matter as I have, will catch your eye. I understand, after the discussion that we had last night, that hon. Members who have the Adjournment have certain rights and if I speak for only five minutes, I think it is only right that hon. Members who are associated with me in this question should express their views.

The questions which I want to put to the Secretary of State for War are these. First: Will the Government make a declaration, which it seems to me is certainly required, that they alone are constitutionally responsible to the House for the conditions governing the entry of British civilians, including hon. Members of this House, into Germany, although their actions must be guided by military requirements? My second question is: What are the conditions today, how are this House and the rest of the public to ascertain them, and has any official statement on the subject been published? My third question is: Will the Minister give an assurance that there will be no discrimination as between individual Members who want to visit the British Zone in Germany? There was a case of an hon. Member opposite—I forget his constituency—who made a speech last week in Germany. A short time ago—and I have his authority to say so—my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Mr. M. Lindsay) was refused permission to go to the British Zone in Berlin. That seems to me to be discrimination that is entirely wrong. I have only one comment to make in putting these questions. Whether we like the Boches or not—and I personally dislike them as a people—we should all realise the fact, which I supose no one will dispute, that the Government are responsible for controlling millions of them and, as we were told in the course of the Budget Debate, they are costing the British taxpayer a very large amount of money. Under our Constitution the Government can only exercise their responsibility through the King in Parliament—a fine old phrase; it is through the Sovereign and this House and another place that these responsibilities are exercised. I am genuinely grateful for the support I get from the other side in this matter. I think there are no Party differences on this question. I believe that the Army and the Military Government are doing fine work in Germany, but whether they are doing it well or not the movements of Members of this House should not be hampered.

Mr. Austin (Stretford)

Mr. Deputy-Speaker, before the noble Lord sits down—

Earl Winterton

I have sat down.

Mr. Austin

I should like to ask the Noble Lord a question, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but he does not seem willing to answer me.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont)

This is a matter for the Noble Lord to decide and not for the Chair. The Noble Lord had concluded his speech, therefore the hon. Member must wait and catch my eye.

Mr. Austin

Is not it in Order for an hon. Member to raise a question in Debate after another hon. Member has spoken?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

It is quite in Order, but the Chair has no power to insist on the right hon. Gentleman replying.

11.51 p.m.

Mr. Vane (Westmorland)

I should like to support the plea which the Noble Lord has made that the regulations under which Members of this House may visit Germany shall at least be made clear, if they cannot be simplified. Today, nearly a year after we have gained victory over Germany, there still appear to be conditions existing which are the conditions of an operational time. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman, when he replies, will be able to lift this veil or, at least, give reasons for it remaining. At the same time, I hope he will not offer the too easy defence, for instance, the sort of defence that could be made by the General Staff that it is for reasons of security, or the defence made by the Q Staff, that it is because of problems of transport, rations, and accommodation. He cannot now suppose these to be insuperable difficulties.

These restrictions remain because, I fear, they may be thought convenient by those in control. I know that some visitors can be a nuisance, and perhaps it is in order to prevent these people from coming and being a nuisance that those in control are perpetuating this ban. There must be many Members of this House who have asked permission to visit Germany recently, and, unless they arc journalists, who seem to have special privileges, who have been refused. Some organised parties have gone to Germany, but these organised parties can only be for the very few, and not all of these parties have been allowed to visit Berlin. I am very grateful for having been included in one of these parties. I found both the Army commanders and the heads of the Military Government most hospitable and helpful, but they did not allow us to visit Berlin, which is, I suppose, the centre of Germany we should have liked most to visit. I do not know what useful purpose these rules serve. But I do know one result: they have created a black market. No doubt the intelligence branches which advise the right hon. Gentleman opposite have told him about this. It works in several ways, I am told, but I did not take advantage of it myself. If you have friends in high places who invite you to Germany there is little obstacle put in your way. This is most unfair.

The problem of the occupation of Germany may well be with us for a genera tion, and if we are to minimise the difficulties which are bound to arise, responsible people must be in possession of some first hand knowledge; and that cannot be gained only by reading the newspapers or by reading the "British Zone Review." Hence I hope that when the right hon. Gentleman replies he will say that, in future, instead of preventing hon. Members of this House and other persons from visiting Germany more freely than at present, we are going to encourage them to make visits to that country and that we will no longer consider Germany as a sort of forbidden land, a European Tibet, as it is at the moment

11.55 p.m.

Mr. Martin Lindsay (Solihull)

I want to ask only one question of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. I want to ask him why, when I was in Germany with the permission of his colleague, the Secretary of State for War, as he well knew, he wrote to a British major-general employed by the Control Commission in Berlin and said he would be obliged if the major-general did not invite me to stay with him. I showed him that letter from my friend. I want an explanation why he took that action when, a month later, a member of his own political party, a Member of this House, was allowed to go to Berlin, presumably with his permission. I am not making any charge. I am very glad that that Member of the House and of his party did go to Berlin; I think all Members should go. But I also think that I am entitled to an explanation as to why I was prevented from going.

11.57 p.m.

Mr. Austin

I am grateful to you for having caught your eye, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, because I am anxious to elicit why certain obstacles were put in the way of certain hon. Members visiting the Berlin area. In October last I was fortunate to be one of a party of eight Members chosen to go to Germany—five others from this House and two from another place. I lobbied those Members and felt certain that they wanted to go to Berlin. I put this view to the War Office but no facilities were made available for us to go there. I was told that a trip to Berlin was impracticable. An hon. Member opposite who was one of the party will agree that this was so, and I felt puzzled because we were all most anxious to go there. I would like to testify to the courtesy and good grace of the Control Commission in the area which we did visit. I do feel, however, that hon. Members of this House are owed some explanation of why difficulties are put in the way of visiting other areas, possibly because of the proximity to the Russian area. I do not know. But the courtesy which was extended to myself and other Members of the party stands out in sharp contrast to the discourtesy extended to me tonight by the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winter-ton) in refusing to give way.

Earl Winterton

On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I did not refuse to give way. I resumed my seat. The hon. Member should be asked to withdraw that remark.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

I think the hon. Member would be unwise to pursue that course of argument and he should withdraw the remark.

Mr. Austin

I realise that the Noble Lord resumed his seat, but had I been in a similar position I would very readily have given way.

12 a.m.

Mr. Driberg (Maldon)

Quite apart from courtesies or discourtesies or personalities, I would like, on the merits of the case advanced, to support what was said by the Noble Lord and hon. Members opposite. I simply want to remind my right hon. Friend of two rather separate things that happened a year or so ago. The first thing is that it is exactly a year next Sunday, this coming Easter day, since a small party of hon. Members of this House and of another place went to Buchenwald concentration camp at the invitation of the Supreme Commander and at the request of His Majesty's Government. Some of these hon. Members, such as the hon. and gallant Member for Epsom (Sir A. Southby), have never fully recovered from that experience. These hon. Members believed that they were doing a public service, and a service to this House, by going there. I believe that hon. Members can still do a similar service, and perhaps even a greater service today, by going to Germany, either in organised groups, or as individuals.

The second point, which I think the Secretary of State for War will remember, is that during the last Parliament there was a considerable fuss in this House because two hon. Members were denied, by the Coalition Government, the right to visit France. So much fuss was kicked up about it, and there was such a stir in all quarters of the House, that the then Home Secretary, the present Lord President of the Council, gracefully yielded and these two hon. Members were able to go to France, as they were entitled to do. This is not in any way a Party matter—

Earl Winterton

Hear, hear—and only one hon. Member has tried to make it so.

Mr. Driberģ

It is a matter of the status, and even of the privilege, of hon. Members of this House. I do not believe that a Government has any right whatever, except in the strict and narrow sense of military security, to obstruct hon. Members who desire, in the pursuit of their lawful occasions, to find out the facts of what is going on in the world, and how the money of the British taxpayer is being spent from going to any country in Europe.

12.3 a.m.

The Secretary of State for War (Mr. J. J. Lawson)

I thank the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) for giving me the opportunity to make a statement upon this matter. He asked me what was the constitutional position. The position is not quite so simple. The Government are responsible for the conduct of affairs in Germany and in Austria, and for the conditions governing the entry of hon. Members into these countries. As Secretary of State for War, I am a member of the Government responsible for making decisions upon matters of this kind. This matter is not as simple as it appears on the surface, and I think that the House will agree that it is not an easy task to make decisions in matters of this kind. We have in Germany a country which has been bombed and fought over, and it has its food troubles. It has no communications, and there is practically no accommodation. Let me make it clear that most, if not all, of the Members who go to Germany or Austria are dependent upon the Army for accommodation, transport and food. That ought to be quite clear, and it is the money of the taxpayers which is involved in this matter. It is right that Members should keep in close contact with the position in Germany, and that they should be in contact with our troops in Germany and Austria. The question was as to the method of doing it I decided in the first place to ask that arrangements should be made through the Whips, if this matter were to be done on the group system. One hon. Member has just mentioned what was done during the war. That was the general manner in which it was done then because of the difficulties of transport and also of food and accommodation. I think that the best way to keep the House in touch with affairs there is by the group plan. However, I did not limit myself to that method. As some hon. Members know quite well, I reserved to myself the right, where the case was quite good, of selecting individual Members who might want to go for special purposes.

When I returned just before Christmas I found that Members had been refused while I was away. I decided to reconsider the particular conditions under which those Members wanted to go. I managed to send one or two of them, but there were certain difficulties, which were not the fault of my hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, who cooperated with me at every stage in this matter. One discovery I made as a result of deciding that I would take Members on their merits, in addition to the group system, was that there was quite a rush of Members who wished to go, and it was practically impossible to deal with the number who wanted to go at a particular period. I want to be quite frank with the House: I have decided, in co-operation with the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and through the Whips, generally speaking, to keep to the group system.

Earl Winterton

Will the right hon. Gentleman please explain what he means by "generally speaking "? Surely, he must have the group system or a general system. He cannot make exceptions, otherwise there will be trouble.

Mr. Lawson

I want to make it clear to the House that I stand by the group system, whereby representatives from all parties, from time to time, will be able to visit either Germany or Austria, but I said "generally speaking," because I think there may be exceptional cases. I do not want to tie myself down absolutely, but except in those cases, I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that the group system will be adhered to. The House realises the difficulties there are in both the countries concerned. There have been three groups already, and I am grateful for their cooperation in this matter. It has been suggested that I should visit Germany, and no one would be more pleased than I would to do so, but until I do so, I am grateful for the experience of those who have gone and who, when they have returned, have told me where they have been, what are the defects they have observed and whether they have anything to say of the troops and their conduct.

There were three such visits made from 20th to 24th and 23rd to 27th of October of last year. At the end of the year, the weather was so bad and circumstances were so difficult in Germany that groups had to be suspended.

The House will be interested to know that a delegation will leave this House on Tuesday next and will return in time for the resumption of Parliament on 3oth April. If they go during the Recess there is more time for them to spend in Germany or Austria. They will get all possible facilities. They can see the formations and units, as those Members who have been there know quite well. In the limited time available, they will have the opportunity of obtaining a firsthand picture of the working of the Military Government and the Control Commission.

I think that I have answered the questions of the right hon. Gentleman as to who is responsible, and as to the conditions. There was one point raised by an hon. Member about the discrimination made between hon. Members.

Mr. Martin Lindsay

Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will allow the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster to give me the explanation for which I asked and to which I think I am entitled.

Mr. Lawson

I do not quite get the point as to why the hon. Gentleman was not allowed to go to Berlin.

Mr. Lindsay

Perhaps I might be allowed to explain. When I came back from Germany I showed a letter to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster which was written by a friend of mine, a major-general, in Berlin, who is employed under the Control Commission. The Chancellor, although he knew that I was in Berlin with the permission of his colleagues, wrote to my friend that he would be obliged if this major-general in Berlin would not invite me to go there, as it would be an embarrassment to him. Yet another member of his Party, I was very glad to see, went to Berlin a month ago.

Mr. Lawson

The hon. Gentleman will answer that when I close. All I can say is that I have told the House of the conditions under which hon. Members of this House go. I leave it to my hon. Friend to answer that particular question. I trust that the House is satisfied with the efforts which I am making to meet the wishes of the House, and to keep the House in contact with the conditions generally in Germany and Austria.

12.13 a.m.

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. John Hynd)

I have been asked to reply on the particular case to which reference has been made, and I do so with the greatest pleasure. A number of remarks have been made concerning the arrangements that have existed in connection with these visits, and the hon. Member for Westmorland (Mr. Vane) referred to the fact that there has been a kind of black market going on in these visits. I am afraid there is a certain amount of truth in it, but the Government are not responsible for that black market.

Reference has been made to an hon. Member who spoke in Germany last week. The only case I know of that kind is of an hon. Member who was in the American Zone, which is not within our jurisdiction. Reference was made to an hon. Member who was in Berlin last week. I do not know what hon. Member is referred to, but he certainly did not go with my permission, nor, as far as I am aware, with the permission of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War.

To come to the case of the hon. Member for Solihull (Mr. M. Lindsay), the situation is that before the Control Office was set up, visits such as were made into Germany were made to the B.A.O.R. under the jurisdiction of the Secretary of State for War, who was entirely responsible for Germany at that time. When the Control Office was set up, organised visits were arranged in conjunction with the Whips, and I was responsible for making the arrangements. I was requested by the Commander-in-Chief at a certain stage last winter, when transport difficulties were very severe and there were other difficulties as well, to consider suspending these official visits. I agreed, in consultation with the Whips, that they should be suspended for the convenience of the Control Authorities in Germany. That was the position at Christmas when I learned, to my astonishment, that the hon. Member for Solihull and others had, by some means, found their way into Germany. Before he got into Germany he was in Brussels. I made inquiries into the position because I understood he had made application to enter Germany—the British Zone—and I learned to my astonishment that he was going at the personal invitation of one of the officers in Germany, who was, presumably, offering him the hospitality of the Army resources—accommodation, food, and so on. Having suspended the official visits of Members of Parliament, going in on the legitimate business of Members of Parliament to make inquiries into conditions, I could not see any justification for allowing individual Members to go over there on the personal invitation of officers or other persons in high places. Accordingly, when I was asked by General Erskine, who happened to meet the hon. Member in Brussels—General Erskine was proceeding to Berlin to take up a position on the Control Commission and telephoned my office to ask what was the position, because he understood there was a ban—we told him the position and, as far as the Control Commission was concerned, Members of Parliament were not to be allowed in the British Zone when official visits were suspended.

It being half an hour after the conclusion of Business exempted from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order, as modified for this Session by the Order made upon 16th August.

Adjourned at Sixteen Minutes past Twelve o'Clock.