HC Deb 11 October 1945 vol 414 cc373-6
4. Mr. Warbey

asked the Minister of National Insurance whether, pending the coming into effect of a comprehensive scheme of national insurance he will take immediate steps to bring about a substantial increase in old age pensions, widows' and orphans' pensions, blind pensions and other forms of contributory and non-contributory State benefits.

5. Mr. Ayles

asked the Minister of National Insurance when he expects to introduce his proposals for increasing old age pensions; and if he proposes to include all pensions, both on a contributory and a non-contributory basis, in order to encourage thrift and consider a provision for abolishing every type of means test.

7. Mr. Lipson

asked the Minister of National Insurance if he is aware that the present basic rates for old age and widows' pensions are quite inadequate; and if he will take immediate steps to increase them.

10. Mr. Butcher

asked the Minister of National Insurance whether he proposes to increase the allowances to old age pensioners during the coming winter.

11. Mr. Kirby

asked the Minister of National Insurance when he proposes to increase the basic rate of old age pensions.

Mr. J. Griffiths

Old age pensions and pensions for widows over 60 or with children are at present being supplemented by the Assistance Board in cases of need, in accordance with Regulations approved by Parliament in December, 1943. These lay down a scale of payments for general guidance and give the Board a wide discretion to deal with the individual circumstances of pensioners. About 1,600,000 out of a total of over 4,000,000 pensioners are at present receiving supplementary pensions, amounting annually to a total of £60,000,000.

The Government intend substantially to improve the basic rates of pension to be payable on retirement and so to reduce the need for supplementation. Proposals to this end, which will also include improvements in the rates of a number of other national insurance benefits will be contained in the Bill which it is hoped to introduce early next year and to pass into law during the present session. A considerable time will be required to bring into full operation all the far-reaching changes contemplated, and the Government have considered various possibilities of improving the pension rates at an early date. They have come to the conclusion that a Bill dealing separately with pensions would be unsatisfactory. It could only be partial in application; it would delay the bringing into effect of the general insurance scheme and would not accelerate the payment of improved pensions by any considerable period. They have, therefore, decided to proceed as rapidly as possible with the general insurance Bill and to make special arrangements to bring its pensions provisions for existing classes of old age pensioners who have retired, including widow pensioners over 60, into operation at a date substantially earlier than that at which it will be possible to operate the scheme as a whole.

Provision will be made for the payment of the increased rates under these special arrangements during the coming financial year, and it is intended to introduce them as soon as is possible after the Bill has reached the Statute Book.

Mr. Warbey

Is the Minister aware that, while his reply will give great satisfaction, there are still many widows, many old people and many blind people and other members of the community who are living in conditions of great distress, and that many of them feel that they are entitled to a reasonable minimum standard of living without the necessity of replying to inquiries of a kind which they feel are infringements on their personal rights and freedom; and will he consider reviewing the matter?

Mr. Griffiths

I fully share the concern and anxiety which the hon. Member has expressed, but I would ask hon. Members to realise that they are faced with the dilemma with which I am faced myself. There are two choices before us—either a series of temporary Measures to deal with pensioners and sick persons, or pressing forward with the main Bill. I have come to the conclusion, and the Government have come to the conclusion, that the right thing is to press forward with the main Bill and bring it into operation, and that for two reasons. First of all, temporary Measures, in my short experience in this House, are never satisfactory. They always give rise to anomalies. There is a second reason. If we have temporary Measures, we shall have to postpone the bringing forward of the major Bill, and I would ask hon. Members to realise that all this social legislation has to be dovetailed, and, as a matter of fact, the Bill we are discussing to-day and which we hope will get its Second Reading, cannot come into operation, until the major Bill is passed. For those reasons, the Government have arrived at this decision, which, I am certain myself, is the best one in the interests of those affected.

Mr. Lipson

Will the Minister say whether the Cabinet have now agreed as to what shall be the basic rate of increase for old age and widows' pensions, and, if so, as it is the general desire on all sides of the House, why should it hold up the major Measure to introduce something which would help these people this winter?

Mr. Griffiths

A temporary Measure could have been passed at any time during the last two years. I have said that the Government have arrived at the conclusion that we have had enough temporary Measures dealing with old age pensions, and that it is time we put the matter on a really permanent basis.

Mr. Kirby

Can the Minister say whether, in relation to the increases which have been agreed upon, the old age pensioners will have any chance at all of benefiting by them during this winter?

Mr. Griffiths

No, Sir. This new basic pension cannot come into operation until the main Bill is passed, and, therefore, I am afraid that that will not be possible this winter because the legislation has to be passed first.

Mrs. Manning

If the old age pensioners have to wait for their increases until the big insurance Measure is through, can my right hon. Friend give us an approximate date when the increases will be paid, and if this is likely to be later than the winter, is there any form of Parliamentary procedure, other than a temporary Measure, which might be used to secure for these old people a flat rate increase before the onset of the coming winter?

Mr. Griffiths

It is not possible at the moment to give a date and when I give a date it will be one upon which I shall be perfectly satisfied myself that I can begin to pay the new basic rates. With regard to the other points, I can only repeat what I have said that, having carefully considered the matter, we have come to the conclusion that it would be a mistake to begin temporary Measures all over again, and that right policy is to press forward quickly with the major legislation. I can give an undertaking that the new pension rates will begin to be paid at the earliest possible date after the main Bill has reached the Statute Book.

Mr. Ivor Owen Thomas

Will the Minister indicate if it is the intention of the Government to make provision in the new Bill for persons who are now excluded from pension, such as widows whose late husbands were not contributors under the present scheme, or elderly persons who are not entitled now to old age pensions?

Mr. Griffiths

I would ask the hon. Member to put that Question down, as it raises another point not included in the Questions which I have just answered.

Mr. Piratin

Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the supplementary pensions to which he made reference are only given after a means test has been instituted? Could he take steps immediately to withdraw such a means test, so that those applying for a supplementary pension can be granted it?

Mr. Griffiths

We have come to the conclusion that the right way of doing this is to increase the basic pension.

Mr. Godfrey Nicholson

Does that mean that a Labour Government is wedded to the means test?