§
Question again proposed:
''That—
2414
Provided that the first meeting of a Standing Committee to consider a Bill shall be at half past ten o'clock on a day to be named by the Chairman of the Committee.
(b) Government Bills referred to a Standing Committee shall be considered in whatever order the Government may decide.
(c) Nothing in this Order shall prevent a Standing Committee meeting at hours additional to those set out in sub-paragraph (a) of this Order.
§ 7.47 p.m.
§ Sir C. MacAndrewI beg to move, in line 30, at end, insert:
and if an Allocation of Time Order has been made in respect of the Bill the Chairman shall put any questions necessary to conclude the proceedings allocated to the sitting in sufficient time that those questions may be decided before one o'clock.This Amendment is quite simple. If hon. Members will look at the new Order, they will see that at one o'clock the Chairman is to adjourn the Committee without Question put. If there is a timetable in action, there will be certain questions which will probably have to be put to clear the work of that day's sitting. If the Chairman has to adjourn the Committee without Question put, he must be given reasonable time in advance, so as to get the decks cleared by calling the various divisions which will be needed to bring the business allocated to that day's sitting to a close at that day's sitting. I hope I have made it clear; it is a simple matter of machinery.
§ 7.48 p.m.
§ Mr. Herbert MorrisonI have great sympathy with the hon. and gallant Member on this point, but there is a practical difficulty, and the problem is to provide for this point without creating some further practical difficulties. As I see it, it is not easy to foresee the course of business with such a degree of precision as will enable the proposal of the hon. and gallant Member to work, and I think it is rather difficult to deal with it as a matter of machinery in a Standing Order. The real problem is to anticipate the conclusion of business at one o'clock without Question put. It might be very nice to take a couple of minutes, but it might be 10 minutes or a quarter of an hour, if Questions have to be put with divisions. The House resumes at 2.15, and the reporters have things to clear up and food to eat, consequently if they are kept even for a quarter of an hour, difficulties are created in relation to the reporting of the House as from 2415 2.15. So long as the House meets at 2.15, this bridging of the gap between the one o'clock ending of the Committee and the 2.15 sitting of the House will be the real difficulty. While the hon. and gallant Gentleman's point is quite a good one, I do not see the way to meet it by Standing Order, and I do not think this Amendment meets it.
I think that the wisest thing would be for the Standing Committees and their chairmen to be conscious of the difficulties, and try to think ahead in the last three quarters of an hour or half-hour of the Committee's proceedings, and shape their discussion so that they can tidy up outstanding questions by one o'clock. By the application of good sense and co-operation, I think it will be possible to meet the difficulty better than by amending the Standing Order. We shall gather experience, and if later on it becomes necessary to make some specific Amendment to the Standing Order, the Government will be willing to consider it at a later stage. Therefore, I put it to the hon. and gallant Gentleman that I am not unfriendly on the matter to which he has called attention, and I know the helpful spirit in which he has raised it. I suggest, however, that he should not press the Amendment now, but that we should see how we get on, and then consider the matter again at a later stage if necessary.
§ 7.51 p.m.
§ Mr. W. S. MorrisonI think it would be convenient if we considered, together with this Amendment, the next Amendment on the Order Paper in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden), which reads:
In line 30, at end, insert, "but if an Allocation of Time Order has been made in respect of a Bill, the Chairman shall, at one o'clock, put any questions necessary to conclude the proceedings allocated to that day.This Amendment deals with the same problem, and in my opinion deals with it in a better way. I can quite understand the objection which the Lord President of the Council has advanced against the Amendment of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ayr and Bute, Northern (Sir C. MacAndrew), but at the same time it is very difficult for the Chairman of a Standing Committee to anticipate when he should break off the discussion in order to leave enough time, and no 2416 more, to put the necessary questions. On the other hand, it would be very desirable that the work that had been done so far should have the seal put upon it so that it would stand on the records as completed business. What is proposed in the Amendment on the Paper in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington is that at one o'clock, notwithstanding the operation of the timetable, the Chairman should be at liberty to put any necessary questions to the vote. I do not think this would hold up proceedings. What we want to avoid is the mere effluxion of time preventing the business that had already been accomplished from being recorded and settled. If it were considered that, notwithstanding the approach of one o'clock, the Chairman should put the necessary questions, that would fix the work that had already been done. I think it would be convenient if these two Amendments were discussed together.
§ 7.53 p.m.
§ Mr. H. MorrisonI can speak again only by leave of the House. I did not know that the next Amendment on the Order Paper might be merged into this Debate. I do not want to be obstinate, and I am willing to listen to arguments. I agree with the right hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. W. S. Morrison) in thinking that the second Amendment, to which he referred, is more practicable than that of the hon. and gallant Member for Ayr and Bute, Northern (Sir C. MacAndrew), but I am still in the difficulty that at one o'clock there might be two or even three questions outstanding—
§ Sir C. MacAndrewThere might be four questions outstanding.
§ Mr. H. MorrisonThere might be the Closure and three other questions. I do not know how long, on the average, divisions take in Standing Committee, but certainly they would take something like eight or 10 minutes. Even if a division took eight minutes and there were three of them, that would keep the Standing Committee in session until about 25 minutes past one. The question is whether Members with luncheon appointments would wait until 25 minutes past one. There is also the point that the reporters have to get ready to report the proceedings of the House at 2.15 p.m. 2417 and they have to clear up any matter on their notebooks by that time. That is the practical difficulty. If I were sure that the Amendment would be worked with good sense, I would accept it, but one can never be sure whether, when things got a bit excited, it would be worked with good sense. I wonder whether we had not better try to deal with the matter by good sense, and then consider later on whether an Amendment of the Standing Order is necessary to cover the point.
§ Sir C. MacAndrewHaving had an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that the Chairmen of Standing Committees will be expected to try to get the decks cleared by one o'clock, which I gather is what the right hon. Gentleman wishes, I should be prepared to withdraw the Amendment.
§ 7.55 p.m.
§ Mr. J. S. C. Reid (Glasgow, Hillhead)I think it is in everybody's interest that this matter should be clarified. I wish to put the position as it seems to me it will almost certainly arise. There will be a bunch of, say, six Clauses which have to be terminated at one o'clock. It will be found that perhaps only three of those Clauses have been passed and that the fourth Clause is under discussion at ten minutes to one; there will be something interesting going on, and every hon. Member will want to get the maximum amount of discussion before the guillotine falls; nobody will be willing to give way, and the Chairman will not be able to do anything until one o'clock strikes. There will then be left an outstanding controversy on the fourth Clause, and there will be the fifth and sixth Clauses which will have to be passed under the guillotine in order to start the next meeting of the Committee, with the decks cleared on the next lot of Clauses. I do not know what will happen in those circumstances as the Standing Order is now drafted. There seems to be no provision in the present draft for clearing up that situation, which it seems to me will very likely occur in many cases. I think it very likely that it will be necessary to come back to the House for further directions if this matter is not cleared up now. A division in a Standing Committee does not take many minutes. If this situation occurs, all that it means is that it may take the Standing 2418 Committee up to a quarter of an hour to clear the decks. It will only be a matter of the formal procedure of putting questions to the vote. There is no reason why the reporters should report that. There will be the clerks taking the names in the division, and there will be nothing for the reporters to do, as there will be no more discussion after one o'clock. If things are done in that way, the decks will then be properly cleared. It would not embarrass the proceedings if this Amendment were accepted, and it might avoid a very difficult situation which could not be cleared up without an appeal to the House.
§ 7.58 p.m.
§ Col. Ropner (Barkeston Ash)I hope the Government will accept the Amendment. As I understand the argument of the Lord President of the Council, he suggests we should rely on the good sense of the Standing Committee and the Chairman of the Standing Committee to see that it is concluded by one o'clock. I suggest that we cannot always rely on the good sense of the Chairman or the good sense of the Committee, and in those circumstances it is advisable that we should have some words such as are suggested in either of the two Amendments. I ask the right hon Gentleman to consider the matter again.
§ 7.59 p.m.
§ Mr. Viant (Willesden, West)I do not know which Amendment hon. Members opposite want to have accepted, but it seems to me that the Amendment in the name of the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) is preferable. When the Select Committee were considering this matter, they were not considering Members who might be in a hurry to get their lunch. They were confronted with a more difficult and practical problem. The reporters who attend the Standing Committees have to dictate their report and have it finished in time to enable them to start reporting the proceeding of the House at a quarter past two. I think the second Amendment may be some help, but all the same, the Sub-Committee of the Standing Committee which is responsible for the guillotine will have to see that the Chairman does not overlook the need for getting the Business cleared up before one o'clock. That is the important point.
§ 8.0 p.m.
§ Mr. Charles Williams (Torquay)May I point out one further consideration? There may be one or two Clauses to get through by one o'clock, and some Government Amendments to be considered. What is the position if, at one o'clock, there is this gap with two or three Clauses left, on which there are a number of Government Amendments not disposed of? They would have to come back and be dealt with on Report stage in the House, and a lot of time might be wasted. I am presuming that these things have been thought out in consultation with the powers that be, and if that is the position, and I can see no argument against it, it would seem wise to have some provision so that, at the end of the day, the Committee would have cleared up the things that were due to be dealt with on that day. I thought it right to point that out to the Government, because, apparently, this position has not been very much thought about.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ 8.1 p.m.
§ Sir C. MacAndrewI beg to move, in line 32, to leave out, "half-past ten o'clock," and insert "a time and."
This rectifies what seems to be a slip in drafting. It has been the undoubted right of the Chairmen to name the hour and date of the first meeting. We still leave them the right of naming the day, but we are taking away the right of naming the hour. I hope that we shall still give the Chairman that right. May I say that, in the Spring of this year, when there was a desire to change the normal hour of sitting from 11 a.m. to 10.30, it was through the Chairmen's Panel that we had it altered. I think that, as we do our work efficiently, we should be left with that right.
§ Colonel RopnerI beg to second the Amendment.
The Chairmen's Panel settles those points not governed by Standing Orders, and they report by Resolution to this House; I quote a Resolution:
Over a large number of years, it has been the established right that the Chairmen appointed to Standing Committees for the consideration of particular Bills should name the day and hour on which consideration of the Bill should begin.That Resolution was passed on a Ruling given by Mr. Speaker Peel in the last century, and I hope that the Government 2420 do not intend to alter a custom which has proved satisfactory to both the Chairmen and Members of the Committees up to the present.
§ 8.3 p.m.
§ Mr. H. MorrisonI can assure the House that there was no wish on the part of the Government to be discourteous to the Chairmen of Committees. They are a very honourable and fair-minded body of hon. Members, who have rendered great public service without any great public show for it. They deserve well from the House for their services, and they are always fair in these matters, but it does seem to us to be logical and sensible, it being understood there is to be a change, that 10.30 should be the time and that is applied only to the first meeting. Subsequently, I believe, the arrangement is taken care of in the new Standing Orders. I am sure the Chairmen will realise that it is the understanding of the House that the hour would be 10.30 a.m., and, in order to try to avoid any feeling that we are trying to fetter the discretion of the Chairmen in this matter, I shall accept the Amendment.
§ Amendment agreed to.