HC Deb 15 November 1945 vol 415 cc2327-9

The following Question stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Mr. Keeling:

113. Mr. Keeling: To

ask the Minister of War Transport whether he will now say if London omnibus conductors are under a legal obligation to allow passengers to stand, up to the limit allowed by his regulations; and whether he has any statement to make about his negotiations with representatives of the Union as to the fulfilment of this obligation.

The Minister of War Transport (Mr. Barnes)

I will, with permission, make a statement on this subject. When, last Monday, in view of negotiations then proceeding, the House was good enough not to press me to make a statement in answer to a Question about standing passengers in omnibuses, I promised that I would do so as soon as possible, after I had again met representatives of the union. It may assist to an understanding of this matter if I explain the nature of the regulations on which standing in omnibuses depends. Before the war, the position was that, by regulations under the Road Traffic Acts, five standing passengers could be carried during peak hours, or when undue hardship would otherwise have been caused. During the war the number of standing passengers permitted was increased to eight at any time, with authority to the Regional Transport Commissioners to permit up to 12 to be carried on specified services, or in specified areas. Since 1941, the maximum permitted in London has been 12 at any time before 7.30 p.m., and eight after that hour. It will be seen that the regulations are permissive in character, their object being to prevent undue discomfort or danger, due to overcrowding.

In July of this year the union approached the London Passenger Transport Board to modify their instructions as to standing passengers, but in view of the traffic situation at that time the Board felt unable to do so. In October, the Board having indicated that they would not oppose some modification of the regulations, the union approached the Regional Transport Commissioner in the matter, and early in November, after a discussion with the union representatives, he decided to restrict his permission to carry 12 standing passengers to the peak hours. On this being reported to central bus delegate conference, they did not regard it as satisfactory, and adopted the attitude that they should not carry any standing passengers at off-peak hours. On Thursday, 8th November, I requested representatives of the Board and the union to meet me, to decide what steps should be taken to resolve the difficulty, and as a result a further delegate conference was called for the next evening to consider the position. The delegate conference were unanimously against carrying standing passengers at off-peak hours.

I met representatives of the union again last Tuesday, and, at my request, they resumed discussions with the Board, and later that evening the joint meeting reported to me that proposals for a solution had emerged which I regarded as satisfactory. I am glad to be able to inform the House that the proposals have been accepted and will come into operation next Saturday. I will circulate a statement of the new arrangement in the Official Report. I am satisfied that this settlement is, in all the circumstances, reasonable from the point of view of the public and the Board, as well as the staff.

Earl Winterton

On a point of Order. I desire to ask you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, whether I am right in thinking that it will be permissible to ask a Private Notice Question, of which I have given you notice, after the next Ministerial statement—or the next two or three—and also whether it will still be in Order to ask a question about Business?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner)

I can assure the Noble Lord that it will be quite in Order.

Mr. Keeling

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that there is a general desire both to prevent undue strain on the public, and also to ease the strain on conductors, especially women conductors? In that spirit, I will ask him two short questions. The first is: Will the new rules be enforced; and the second: Is he satisfied that there will be sufficient additional buses available to prevent the new rules from imposing undue hardship on the public?

Mr. Barnes

Yes. They are two of the issues about which I satisfied myself, before agreeing to these modified proposals.

Following is the statement:

AGREEMENT AS TO STANDING PASSENGERS
Period No. permitted.
Monday to Friday.
Midnight—10 a.m. 12
10 a.m.–4.30 p.m. 5
4.30 p.m.–7 p.m. 12
7 p.m.–10.30 p.m. nil
10.30 p.m. to midnight 5
Saturday.
Midnight—10 a.m. 12
10 a.m.—noon 5
Noon—2.30 p.m. 12
2.30 p.m.–5 p.m. 5
5.0 p.m.–10.30 p.m. nil
10.30 p.m.—midnight 5
Sunday.
All day nil
(but crews are being asked to meet special conditions as they arise.)