POLICE (OVERSEAS SERVICE) BILL (Hansard, 9 November 1945)

§ The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. John Hynd)
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
This Bill is designed for the purpose of protecting the pensions, continuity of employment, disciplinary and other rights of British policemen serving overseas, that is, mainly such officers as are now employed with our Control Commissions in Germany and Austria. Provisions in the Bill are sufficiently wide to cover any other similar police mission abroad, as for example, the small British police mission in Greece at the present time, numbering, I think, about 50.
After recent Debates, I suppose I need hardly expatiate on the need for the recruitment of such services, nor need I explain to the House that in the particular circumstances that exist overseas in our Control Commission territories, the men secured for the services should be the best type of police officer, trained in British police methods. In Germany where our task is greatest, and where the numbers of men required are still small, the total number affected will be much larger than those employed in Austria. Anyone whoknows the circumstances will not deny that almost a miracle of organisation and extemporisation has been achieved by our occupation forces in that country, in a relatively short time. Probably, sufficient publicity has not been given to that work, and, possibly, they have not had sufficient public thanks for the work which they have done; but there is no doubt that they have achieved a tremendous improvement in the situation which they found when the territories were first occupied. It is part of the purpose of this Bill that we should ensure that 1621 they should not be a "Forgotten Army," so far as their conditions of service are concerned.
The work done in Germany and Austria has been done by military methods, inevitably under the conditions. Under those conditions, probably, no other method would have been able to achieve anything like the same result. It is true that we shall be in Germany for a long time yet; but it is not the Government's intention that our military forces there shall be called upon indefinitely to remain there in order to carry on every aspect of German civil administration in addition to their multifarious other duties. On the contrary it will be our endeavour, as soon as possible, so to reorganise the civil life and administration in Germany that we shall be able to make the Germans themselves do the bulk of the work, provided they do it on democratic lines, and under the necessary supervision of the forces required to maintain such supervision.
One of the essential services that must be carried on is the maintenance of public order by adequate police forces, but if we are to complete, as quickly and effectively as we would wish, the policy of the de-Nazification of the German police, as of all other services—and I refer not only to the removal of personnel but the de-Nazification of methods, practice and atmosphere—it is obvious that we must put something in its place. The organisation and training of a new police force is not only important, but from our point of view urgent.
In Austria the position is somewhat different. Although similar in many respects it is different not only in degree but also in quality, because in Austria there have fortunately been available many more young men of anti-Nazi and anti-Fascist character who can be used and who are already being widely used as the basis for the new Austrian police force. But even in Austria an efficient policeman is not made from convictions or enthusiasm alone. Speedy training on right lines is essential if we are to restore and maintain reasonable conditions, and, in the case of Austria, inspire the necessary self-confidence and self-respect in those democratic institutions which are springing up there, and enable early realisation of the objective of our occupation of Austria, which is to assist her 1622 towards establishing herself as a free, democratic State.
This Bill does not set up a new service. The nucleus already exists in those countries. Under the original scheme for the police control of Germany there was set up a headquarters establishment of 74 police officers of various grades. Also, as a separate part of the original planning scheme there was a police branch for the military government of Greater Berlin, comprising 47 posts. Most of these have been occupied by military officers, but in pursuance of the policy I have outlined these forces will be rapidly civilianised. In May last, 21st Army Group found itself unable to provide for all the policing duties falling upon it, and a civilian police pool of 60persons was set up and recruited on civilian lines in the same way as the headquarters police establishment, namely, from the United Kingdom police forces, including the Royal Ulster Constabulary, as well as police pensioners in some cases. Recruitment of this pool is now practically completed.
These were the embryonic stages. It is obvious that this total force in Germany of 180 persons, of whom some 74 are employed at headquarters and 47 in Berlin—121 out of 180—is entirely inadequate, either to police the entire British zone, or to maintain public order, or effectively to control and supervise any German police forces before the period of de-Nazification has been thoroughly and satisfactorily completed, or to train the new replacements to the de-Nazified police forces to the point where these can be regarded as competent and reliable democratic guardians of a new and unfamiliar set of democratic laws. That is particularly so when it is borne in mind that the highly centralized Nazi police force is now being broken up in accordance with that policy, and its place taken by purely local police forces.
The personnel we require for this purpose of organising, supervising and training German civilian police forces so far as possible in British methods, or at least with a background of British methods, must be drawn in the main from our own competent and highly trained police forces, either police serving in this country at the present time, or policemen serving overseas in the Armed Forces, or otherwise. The total estimated number mentioned in the preamble to the Bill 1623 to cover all these territories, Germany, Austria and Greece, is about 900. In Germany now there are 181 police officers, about 11 in Austria, and 50 with the Greek Police Mission, making about 240. There is also in Germany a pool of about 500 public security officers who are also mainly if not entirely ex-police officers, or police who are serving in the Forces. Out of that pool we hope to obtain, if conditions are satisfactory, if rights of reinstatement in the home forces, pensions, etc., are guaranteed, between 300 and 400, say about 350, leaving about 300 men to be drawn from home personnel.
It will be clear that even such an extended force is still a very small one for this important task. The duties of those who are prepared to undertake this important work will be of the greatest significance to our efforts towards restoring European order and civilisation. It is, accordingly, our duty to ensure that such persons as are prepared to offer their services, should be fully protected as to their conditions of service, pensions, disciplinary rights, and, reinstatement in their home police forces at the expiry of their service.
That is the purpose of the Bill, which is in two main Clauses. Clause 1 covers all persons who may be employed on these duties. Clause 2 applies to members of police forces at home or former police officers now serving in the Armed Forces and who may wish to transfer to this special police service. In regard to the provision in Clause 1 that the cost of maintenance shall be from moneys provided by Parliament, it should be mentioned that this is subject to the recovery of any part or all of the cost we may obtain from a foreign government benefiting from such services, as in the case of Greece, where the Greek Government pays for a certain part of the maintenance of the force there. Sub-section (2) of Clause 1 permits the Secretary of State to make such regulations as may be required to preserve disciplinary arrangements, appeals, pensions, etc. This procedure is necessary because of the many categories and the implications of the Bill, which could not possibly be embodied in an Act of Parliament. Therefore the regulations procedure, which provides under Sub-section (5) of Clause 1, that the regulations will be laid before 1624 Parliament and be subject to the negative resolution procedure, is necessary.
It is the intention, so far as pensions are concerned, that the arrangements shall be those provided for in the Police Pensions Act, 1921, subject to any necessary adaptations or modifications according to the circumstances, because all the different types engaged in this service at present or who may be so engaged in the future, and all the individual circumstances cannot be foreseen. These provisions in Clause 1 will apply to everyone accepted into the temporary service. The provisions of Clause 2, which protects the conditions of service of English and Scottish police officers who engage in this service, provide that service abroad shall be credited for pension purposes under the Police Pensions Act, and that the men will be entitled, at the end of their overseas service, to reinstatement in their parent forces at home, with full credit for their overseas service. This will apply retrospectively to those already serving in Germany, Austria and Greece. Without the Bill, existing arrangements do not cover all these matters. For example, in the case of a policeman already serving in the Forces, say in Germany, who wished to take up service in this new force, it would, under present conditions be necessary for him, on demobilisation or release from the Armed Forces under the B Scheme, to return home, take up service with his home police force, and then apply for the opportunity of transferring abroad again, and make the necessary agreement with his local police authority to cover his pension, reinstatement and other rights. Under the Bill, such men will be able, with the consent of their police authorities at home, to transfer directly from their Army service into the new police service, with firm guarantees on all these points.

§ Viscount Hinchingbrooke (Dorset, Southern)
Under what powers are the police now functioning in Germany? I see nothing in the Bill about the repeal of temporary provisions.

§ Mr. Hynd
There is no necessity at present for the repeal of provisions for the purpose of enabling these men to be in Germany now, because there is power of seconding police officers by agreement with their local police authorities, but 1625 under conditions arranged individually with the local police authority. The Bill seeks to clarify the whole position, and to make these conditions automatically applicable to men now serving, or who will serve, in the new service. Otherwise, as I have said, it would mean the clumsy procedure of men returning home from the Army, taking up service in a police force and asking to be seconded, on the basis on which those in Germany are now serving. The Bill is, therefore, necessary for the smooth and expeditious recruitment of these men, and is urgently required if we are successfully to carry out the difficult and complicated tasks that face us in Germany and Austria. I hope, therefore, that the Bill will be accepted as a non-controversial Measure, and passed speedily into law.

§ Mr. Grimston (Westbury)
There can be no disagreement with the thesis put forward by the hon. Gentleman that we shall have to maintain personnel to do police duty in occupied and certain other countries for some time to come. It is, obviously, desirable that we should find the right type of man to do that. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that this Bill is necessary in order that their conditions may be properly laid down, and that the rights as to pensions, reinstatement, and so forth of those who volunteer, and who are members of home forces who may volunteer for this service should be safeguarded, which this Bill does.
Therefore, we do not propose to raise any opposition to the Second Reading. There are, however, one or two questions that I would like to ask the hon. Gentleman, and if he cannot reply to them now, I hope he will do so on the later stages of the Bill. I presume, so far as Members of the home police forces are concerned, that all men for these overseas forces will be volunteers, and I would also like to know, with regard to long-term overseas service, whether there is provision for their wives and families to go abroad with them. Further we should be told something about the rates of pay which are to be offered and I should like an explanation of the reference in the Bill to "a Secretary of State." Are there to be several Secretaries of State responsible for different forces, or which Secretaries of State are to be concerned in this 1626 matter? It is important to see that there is unification, and that there should not be different regulations made by different Secretaries of State. The right hon. Gentleman said that the 900 persons indicated here will probably be absorbed by the forces in Germany, Austria and Greece, but the Explanatory Memorandum mentions foreign police missions, now in being or in contemplation. The three he has mentioned are in being, and I would like to know what other foreign police missions may be in contemplation. Subject to these questions—and I hope that we may have a reply to them today—we agree that this Bill is necessary, and we, on this side, do not propose to offer any opposition to it.

The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. McNeil)
We are grateful for the help offered by the hon. Gentleman opposite, and I can reply to three of the points which have been made. The whole force is recruited completely on a voluntary basis. All the men are volunteers. In the case of Greece, we propose to make arrangements whereby, when required, the wives and families could join the men, because there, at any rate, we contemplate that the men may be required for some two years. The rates of pay are provided for, and they are the controlled Commission rates plus certain emoluments of, I think, 25 per cent. for married men and 12£ per cent. for single men. In the case of the mission in Greece, there is the normal foreign service allowance, which I think is £90 a year for married men and £25 for single men.

§ Mr. Grimston
The percentages which the hon. Gentleman mentioned, are about the current rates here? Is that right?

Mr. McNeil
The percentages are above the rates prevalent here. I can only give a qualified answer in respect of the question about which forces are contemplated. The Government have none actually in mind but, as the hon. Gentleman knows, it is not unusual to ask this country to supply police missions for advisory and organising purposes. Perhaps I may be permitted to say that, already, we have had a substantial measure of success with our small force in Greece. There was a recent political demonstration which has hitherto been almost an annual occasion 1627 for disorder, and it passed off in comparative quiet. Someone told me that it might have been a May Day in Hyde Park. I think that is possibly being too smooth about it, but it is a testimony to the progress Sir Charles Wickham and his small force have made there. It was at the invitation of the Greek Government that we supplied this mission. They have very wide powers, and we are mildly optimistic that their work may add to the political stability there.