HC Deb 30 May 1945 vol 411 cc262-75
The Attorney-General

I beg to move, in page 5, line 8, leave out from "in," to "a," in line 10, and insert " the manner hereinafter specified."

I think it would be convenient, Mr. Speaker, if I dealt with this Amendment and the two following Amendments in line 14 and line 15 together, since they set out an amended formula as to the persons on whom the notices of proposal are to be served. The House will observe that the Bill at present requires that the Minister shall publish a notice in such manner as appears to him best adapted for informing persons interested and the local planning authority. We had some discussion upon that in Committee, and we now suggest that it should be extended as is proposed in these Amendments. The first half of the Amendment in line 15 provides that the notice shall be given and the copy shall be served first of all on the person getting compensation, secondly, to every person appearing from the register to be an owner or lessee, and thirdly, to the local planning authority. The House will see that the Amendment then goes on to provide that the Minister shall cause to be published a copy thereof in such newspapers, if any, and in such other manner, if any, as appear to him to be appropriate. I hope it will be in Order for me to say a word about that, rather glancing forward to the Amendment to the proposed Amendment which my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) is to move, as the two things are very linked up. On the question of newspapers, we provide that the Minister can cause to be published a copy of the notice in a newspaper, but that is to be discretionary for him. We feel that it would be unnecessary in every case to have publication in a newspaper. There might be cases in which only one person would be concerned, and it would be a waste of time and money. Similarly, we could not accede to the suggestion that everybody who might possibly have an interest should be served, because that would mean so much referring as to make delay and expense inevitable. Therefore, we have tried to meet the wishes of a number of my hon. Friends by making the provision which I have just outlined. I do not think I need deal with the second part of the Amendment in any detail, because it follows, with very slight adaptation, several precedents, including that of the Housing Act, 1936, Section 167. I hope my hon. Friends will feel that we have gone a considerable way to meet their point, and that the House will accept these Amendments.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 5, line 14, leave out "and the local planning authority."—[The Attorney-General.]

The Attorney-General

I beg to move, in page 5, line 15, at the end, insert: The said notice shall be published as follows, that is to say, the Minister shall—

  1. (a) serve a copy thereof on any person to whom compensation under paragraph (a) of Sub-section (1) of Section two or Sub-section (2) of Section three of the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939, is in course of payment in respect of the land and, where the land is registered land within the meaning of the Land Registration Act, 1925, on every person appearing from the register to be an owner or a lessee of the land; and
  2. (b) serve a copy thereof on the local planning authority within whose area the land is situated; and
  3. (c) cause to be published a copy thereof in such newspapers, if any, and in such other manner, if any, as appear to him to be appropriate,
and the Minister shall also cause to be deposited with the said local planning authority a map identifying the land, and the authority shall permit that map to be inspected at all reasonable hours without payment. Any notice required to be served under this Sub-section may be served either—
  1. (i) by delivering it to the person on whom it is to be served; or
  2. (ii) by leaving it at the usual or last known place of abode of that person; or
  3. (iii) by sending it in a prepaid registered letter addressed to that person at his usual or last known place of abode; or
  4. (iv) in the case of an incorporated company or body, by delivering it to the secretary or clerk of the company or body at their registered or principal office or sending it in a prepaid registered letter addressed to the secretary or clerk of the company or body at that office; or
  5. (v) if it is not practicable after reasonable inquiry to ascertain the address of the person on whom it should be served, by addressing it to him and delivering it to some person on the land, or, if there is no person on the, land to whom it can be delivered, by displaying it in a prominent position on the land."

Mr. Turton

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 10, leave out "newspapers, if any," and insert: local or other newspapers. May I say, in general, that I and my hon. Friends are grateful for the main part of the Chancellor's proposed Amendment? It meets a great many of the points that we made in Committee, but not the major point. The major point is that we should in this Bill treat this matter of notice of proposals as in the case of Private Bill Procedure, or follow the very many precedents in similar Measures where it has been laid down that there should be an advertisement in two successive weeks in a local or national newspaper. My Amendment to the proposed Amendment is really a compromise. The provision that the Chancellor may publish the notice in a newspaper if he wishes is really, with great respect to the Chancellor, no concession at all. Of course, if the Chancellor or any Minister wishes to publish the fact that he intends to take some land, he can do so, and the words in the proposed Amendment really mean nothing at all. I cannot understand why the Government should be frightened of this precaution of advertising these proposals so that nothing shall be done by any Government Department secretly and in the dark and the rights of the people shall not be taken away quietly. I recognise that there might be some cases in which it would be sufficient if the proposal were advertised in one newspaper and perhaps on one occasion. For that reason, my Amendment does not go as far as my Noble Friend the Member for South Dorset (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) and many of my hon. Friends originally intended to go. My Amendment is an attempt to get a last minute concession and a compromise concession out of the Government. It would only the tie Minister's hands to the extent that he would have to give some publication to his proprosal. The Amendment gives him a very wide choice. He can choose any newspaper in the whole of Britain for the advertisement. Surely the Government can grant us this small concession, which would be in line with all the precedents.

Colonel Clarke (East Grinstead)

I beg to second the Amendment.

I feel it is essential that this information should be published in the newspapers. The provision as it stands gives the Chancellor a chance of running out on us. There are local newspapers in all the more populated parts of the country; they publish details of farm sales and other sales, details of properties and so on, and they are followed by business people, solicitors, land agents and so forth. Even the sparsely populated parts of the country have some representative newspaper. In another connection there are legal obligations to give notice in such newspapers. For instance, if anybody proposes to close a footpath, he has to publish the fact in a local newspaper, and I have never heard of anybody being unable to find such a local newspaper. If an effort is made a newspaper can always be found. I ask the Chancellor to consider favourably this very small Amendment, which would be of real value.

Mr. Gallacher (Fife, West)

I have had occasion to remark before that hon. Members opposite are never satisfied. The land-grabbers are always on the grab. It is pathetic to sit here and realise the amount of hardship and suffering that there is outside, and then to witness the meticulous care that is taken to ensure that these fellows are paid compensation for land that has been stolen. Every care is taken—

Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Colonel Sir Charles MacAndrew)

I must point out to the hon. Member that this Amendment deals only with notices in local or other newspapers.

Mr. Gallacher

I want to come to the Amendment. Already in the Amendment that was moved by the Chancellor and accepted by the House there is every consideration given—far too much consideration given—to those people; and now we get this Amendment to the Amendment. It is not enough that the Chancellor should take power to publish a notice in a newspaper. They must have him tied down to publish it whether it is necessary to publish it or not. I do not suppose that they are contemplating publishing it in the "Daily Worker." Consider this for a moment. A piece of land is affected and there are one or two owners ready to grab at compensation. The Chancellor serves a notice on them and then notifies the planning authority. Does the hon. Member mean to insist that the Chancellor must in that situation, quite unnecessarily, publish a notice in a local paper? Has he no respect for the right hon. Gentleman's intelligence?

4.45 p.m.

Mr. Turton

I gather that the hon. Member is addressing his question to me. On most pieces of land there are rights of way to a village or a town. If this is done in a hole-and-corner way, the rights of the people are disregarded.

Mr. Gallacher

Surely the hon. Member is not trying to put it across me that he is interested in the rights of the people. You can easily get a situation where the owner or lessee of a piece of land is known and can be approached at any time, so each individual who has a claim on the land has a notice.

Colonel Clarke

Suppose the individuals are soldiers serving in Burma.

Mr. Silverman (Nelson and Colne)

What good will a local newspaper be to them?

Mr. Gallacher

If the owners and the town planning authority are served with notices, do hon. Members insist that the Chancellor must put a notice in a local paper? Of course, if he cannot get in touch with the owners or lessees it may be necessary to put a notice in a local paper, or a national paper, or a Burmese paper if he has an idea that the owner is abroad on service, but to suggest that, willy-nilly, whether it is necessary or not, the Chancellor must be put to the trouble and expense of inserting a notice in a local paper is really going beyond any bound of intelligence at all. The Chancellor has the power to make certain that every interest will get to know what is going to happen, and the Amendment should be rejected.

Viscount Hinchingbrooke

I think the hon. Member has not read the Clause to which the Amendment refers. The Minister is obliged to enter into this publication of details in cases where he proposes to discharge or modify any restriction as to the user of any land. In other words, notice is required before the Minister enters into discussion with the local individual in order that his rights may be restored to him. I am astonished that the hon. Member does not wish this publication to take place in case some right wing Tory Government does a deal with a right wing Tory individual over a piece of land. The point about the Amendment is that we should have as much publication as we can get in these local newspapers. I do not understand why the Government is being so difficult in this matter. We had considerable discussion on it on the Town and Country Planning Bill. The Second Schedule lays down very clearly the procedure which has to be followed in regard to publication and the words there are very nearly, if not almost precisely, those which we used in the Amendment on the preceding page of the Order Paper. We are not going as far as that to-day. We only wish to include the words to which my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) has referred. I do not understand why the Government should be so recalcitrant.

Sir J. Anderson

May I, before coming to the subject matter of the Amendment, tender to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, my congratulations on the position in which you appear for the first time? I will do my best to explain to my hon. Friends who have accused the Government of trying to run out and of being recalcitrant, why we see difficulty in accepting the Amendment. In the first place, in criticising the new Clause, which is the result of very careful consideration of the arguments which were advanced at an earlier stage, my hon. Friends seem to me to have left entirely out of account certain very important considerations. They argue as if, unless the Government are more or less tied hand and foot they are liable to do unreasonable things. The Government has not got a free hand. Under the Clause as proposed to be amended the Minister concerned will still be under the most specific obligation to publish in such manner as appears to him best adapted for informing the persons affected. The scheme of the Amendment is perfectly simple. It is that notice should be given directly to all persons known to be directly affected and, apart from that, other means should be adopted where appropriate, of informing other persons who may be concerned.

There is another point that my hon. Friends have left out of account, no doubt inadvertently. The local authority has to be informed and a map has to be deposited, and at an earlier stage the Government gave an assurance that they would arrange with local authorities for access to be obtainable to the notice and the map. I think we have gone a very long way indeed towards meeting the perfectly reasonable arguments put forward at an earlier stage. The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) suggested that the reference to newspapers in the Government Amendment was quite valueless because the words "if any" qualify the reference, but his Amendment would not be watertight. If the Government are to be suspected of running out, there is a considerable space through which they could escape in the Amendment, because the reference to newspapers is still qualified by the word "appro- priate" and, if the publication is not appropriate in a particular case, I should have thought the Amendment would not impose on the Government any obligation to publish. Take the simple case of a plot of land with no right of way, with a building on it, which the Government have used and desire to retain. If the owner of the building is effectively notified of the proposal and the local authority is told, is there any need to publish in a newspaper?

The Government do not in the least desire to avoid any form of publication which will serve a useful purpose, but to have to publish where such publication adds nothing to the information appears to me a foolish proceeding, especially at this time when it is a matter of considerable difficulty in some cases to find an opportunity for publication in a newspaper without incurring considerable delay. The Government Amendment has this definite advantage, that the reference to newspapers suffices to call the attention of the Department concerned to that method of publication. It puts them in the position of having to apply their minds to the question whether the case is one in which publication in the newspaper would be appropriate. If my hon. Friends will look at the proposals of the Government as a whole, I think they will agree that we really have in substance met the case which was argued so fully in Committee.

Mr. Silverman

I want to make an appeal to the right hon. Gentleman. There are some 11 or 12 Parliamentary days left and there are 62 Clauses in the Bill. We are dealing with the third Amendment to Clause 8. No one, not even the movers of the Amendment, can regard this as a serious or substantial Amendment. There is no question of principle involved. It is a pure point of administrative detail. If in these circumstances the right hon. Gentleman is going to give a long, careful, detailed answer to every kind of argument which can possibly be raised, he is placing a powerful weapon in the hands of those who may desire to obstruct him in the passage of the Bill. It is not in the least necessary at this stage of this Bill in this Parliament to devote so much time and care and argument to a point which never had any substance at all.

5.0 p.m.

Captain Duncan

I had no intention of speaking until the hon. Gentleman spoke. I will at once deny any intention of obstructing the passage of the Bill, and I would like your protection, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. The hon. Gentleman has stated that I have been obstructing this Bill, and I understand it is not in Order to impute obstruction.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

It is certainly not in Order to impute obstruction.

Mr. Silverman

I withdraw anything I have said that was improper, but it has not usually been held to be out of Order to say of a particular Amendment or speech that, in the opinion of the speaker, it is an obstructive Amendment or speech.

Captain Duncan

I naturally accept the withdrawal of the hon. Member. The only other thing I would like to say, in view of the hon. Gentleman's speech, is that this is a complicated Bill and that the Amendments in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) deal with points that were left over on the Committee stage. It is only a cleaning-up process that is being done now, and there is no intention of obstruction or delay. I hope that the Bill, which we all recognise is necessary for the unwinding of the war effort, will be passed and that there will be no unnecessary waste of time on any side of the House.

Mr. Turton

In view of the arguments that have been advanced, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Proposed words were inserted in the Bill.

Mr. Peake

I beg to move, in page 5, line 22, to leave out "the progress of scientific research or".

On the Committee stage we accepted an Amendment to safeguard the interests of societies interested in the progress of scientific research. This and the two following Amendments are merely redrafting in order to meet the point which was raised in Committee.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In page 5, line 23, leave out "a," and insert "the local planning authority, by any."

In line 28, at end, insert: or, (c) in a case where it appears to him that the proposals will or may affect the progress of scientific research, by a society or body having as its object or one of its objects the furtherance of scientific research, being a society or body the character and membership of which is such that it is, in his opinion, proper that their views should be considered."—[Mr. Peake.]

Mr. Peake

I beg to move, in page 5, line 29, to leave out "he shall," and insert "then."

This and the following two Amendments deal with a different point. During the Committee stage it was suggested that, owing to the time limit to the initiation of proceedings under this part of the Bill for compulsory purchase, the Department might, in order to safeguard their position, serve a multitude of notices and then take no proceedings whatever to follow the matter up. The point was a genuine one, and we undertook to consider it. These Amendments are put down to meet it, and they provide that, if objection to a proposal is made, the Minister must take the matter to the Commission within a period of two months.

Mr. Turton

This is a most valuable concession, and we are grateful to, the Government for making it.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In page 5, line 29, at end, insert: he shall, not later than two months from the time so specified. In line 36, after "Sub-section," insert: and has not been afforded an opportunity of appearing before and being heard by them."—[Mr. Peake.]

Mr. Turton

I beg to move, in page 5, line 36, after "Sub-section," insert: or to any other person who appears to them to be interested or to any local authority, society or body the character and membership of which is such that it is in the opinion of the Commission proper that their views should be considered. Even with the Minister's last Amendment, it may well be that a body which some Minister has decided shall not be accounted a proper body to object, will not be able later to go before the Commission. All parties want the scope of the Commission to be unfettered and they shall be able to decide whom they think are the relevant persons to object to any proposal. If the Chancellor is going to give way on the Amendment I will curtail my remarks.

Mr. Peake

No.

Mr. Turton

I thought my right hon. Friend was expressing favour with what I said. This Clause, which deals with who shall be heard by whom, is very complicated, and not at all clear. I regret that the Chancellor did not explain his last Amendment in page 5, line 36. It makes the position better than it was before, but it is still complicated. First of all, the Minister decides who is a fit and proper person to object. We then have the Commission calling before them, I hope, whomsoever they select, and then we have the Commission holding a local inquiry. Then it would seem, that the only people who can appear at the inquiry are those whom the Minister has decided to be the right people to object. It is all very confusing and is rather like the Order which the Financial Secretary was explaining at a late hour last night. It would be unfortunate if a Bill over which we have taken so much time went out in this rather difficult form. If the words I am suggesting were put in, it will be a good deal clearer than it is.

General Sir George Jeffreys (Petersfield)

I beg to second the Amendment.

The Amendment merely appears to extend the scope of the bodies or individuals who, under Sub-section (2, b) have the right to appear before a Commission. It makes clear that any body or society which has a genuine reason for objection should be enabled to appear before the Commission.

The Attorney-General: If my hon. Friends will consider the way in which the Clause is already framed, they will see that difficulties do not really exist. The only matter that the Minister can decide is under Sub-section (2, b), as to whether the society or body is one whose views should be heard. We have discussed that point, and that was the decision of the Committee. Once a Minister has decided that it is open for the society or body to make its objections. I do not see where the fears of my hon. Friend lie in that direction. All the bodies which will be concerned with these problems, such as the Council for the Preservation of Rural England and the local bodies which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Petersfield (Sir G. Jeffreys) referred to, are clearly all bodies whose views would be welcomed by the Minister on a point like this. Once he has recognised the body, it is for the body to make its objection. It is a well-recognised principle in the field of local government and in many other fields that, if you are given a right to make an objection, you must make it, and if you do not take the trouble to make it, you will not be heard. That does not put any difficult or indignity or trouble in the way of the body. If it has made objection, then Sub-section (3) is mandatory, and the body will be heard by the person appointed, unless it has been before the Commission in accordance with the Amendment which the House has just passed. I know the difficulty that sometimes appears of appreciating the interlocking of Amendments, but if we take it by steps, we see that it is reasonable that the Minister should decide the fitness of the body. After that it is up to the body to make objection, and if it makes objection it will be heard.

Mr. Turton

Do I understand my hon. and learned Friend to say that, in his view, the Commission should not be entitled to hear a body if the Minister has said that it is not a proper body to be heard, and that there will be no appeal from such a decision of the Minister?

5.1.5 p.m.

The Attorney-General

That is the field for the Minister. The objection is made to him. He examines it at that early stage. He has the circumstances of the body before him and if, in his opinion, it is not proper that their views should be considered I suggest to the House that we should agree with the view of the Committee when this point was discussed that that is a proper matter for ministerial decision.

Amendment negatived.

Sir J. Anderson

I beg to move, in page 6, line 2, at end, insert: (5) Where the Board of Trade certify—

  1. (a) that the land which is to be acquired or for the benefit of which the easement or right to be acquired or which is subject to the restriction to be discharged or modified, as the case may be, is or is part of industrial premises; and
  2. (b) that those premises in substance owe their existing character, so far as the buildings and structures thereon are concerned, to Government war work; and
    3. 274
  3. (c) that in the interests of an orderly transition from war conditions to peace conditions it is expedient that the ability of the Crown to dispose of the premises, together with all necessary easements and other rights over and in relation to other land, should be established without delay.
and the Minister of Town and Country Planning certifies that the proposals are, in his opinion, consistent in all the circumstances with the proper use and development of land, the preceding provisions of this Section shall have effect subject to the following modifications, that is to say, for the reference in Sub-section (1) thereof to a period of three months there shall be substituted a reference to a period of fourteen days, and Sub-section (4) thereof shall not apply: Provided that this Sub-section shall not apply where the proposals are for the acquisition of land which includes the whole or any part of a common, open space or fuel or field garden allotment or is the property of any local authority. In this Sub-section the expression 'industrial premises' includes industrial premises in an incomplete state, and the expression 'buildings and structures' shall be construed accordingly. Hon. Members will recall that during the Committee stage it was agreed that Sub-section (5) of Clause 8, dealing with works which were certified by the President of the Board of Trade, should be withdrawn and that at this stage there should be moved a provision in somewhat different terms the effect of which would be not to withdraw entirely from the scope of the Commission works to which Subsection (5) of Clause 8 related, but to provide for dealing with them under a simplified and expedited procedure. I trust my hon. Friends who were interested in this matter on the Committee stage will agree that the proposed new Sub-section fully and faithfully carries out the undertakings which were given during the Committee stage. That being so, I need not address the House at any length. I would merely point out that we have preserved the position of the Minister of Town and Country Planning in rather a different form. We require from him here a preliminary certificate, and that, of course, makes unnecessary the provision which appears elsewhere under which where planning considerations appear to be involved the Commission has to refer specially to a Minister. We also preserve the exclusion of common lands from the provisions of this particular Sub-section.

Captain Duncan

I desire to thank my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works for this Amendment. It was he who thought of this idea and suggested it to the President of the Board of Trade and to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I am sure hon. Members, at any rate on this side of the House, join with me in thanking my hon. Friend.

Mr. Edmund Harvey (Combined English Universities)

I am sure that not only hon. Members on the other side of the House, but hon. Members on this side, will join in thanking the Government for the way in which they have met the wishes expressed on all sides concerning the further safeguarding of open spaces and commons, and also for the very ingenious way in which the Ministry of Town and Country Planning has been given a place in this Clause of the Bill.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Peake

I beg to move, in page 6, line 4, after "forthwith," insert: send a copy thereof to any person from whom he received any such objection as is specified in Sub-section (2) of this Section and. This Amendment and the two others on this Clause in the name of my right hon. Friend are designed to carry out an undertaking given by the Attorney-General on the Committee stage. Their effect is to ensure that a copy of the Commission's Report will be sent to all persons from whom a notice of objection was received.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In page 6, line 4, after "such," insert "other", in line 5, leave out "best adapted for informing persons interested," and insert "appropriate."—[Mr. Peake.]