HC Deb 16 March 1945 vol 409 cc557-62
The Attorney-General

I beg to move, in Clause 3, page 2, line 14, at beginning, insert: Subject to the provisions of this section. 1.30 p.m.

This Amendment, and the following Amendments to this Clause in the name of my right hon. and gallant Friend, all deal with the same subject and carry out a suggestion which was made in the Second Reading Debate by my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Mr. Lewis) and, I think, by other hon. Members. The point is this, under the Bill as introduced there was a flat power to appoint two Parliamentary Secretaries. My right hon. and gallant Friend the Minister referred to the special duties that have been carried out by the two Parliamentary Secretaries that now exist—my right hon. Friend the Member for Ladywood (Mr. G. Lloyd) who deals in the main with petroleum and oil, and my hon. Friend the Member for Normanton (Mr. T. Smith).

My right hon. and gallant Friend went on to say that it was not anticipated that in normal times more than one Parliamentary Secretary would be needed for this Ministry. We felt that that was an important point of principle. It is only in somewhat exceptional circumstances that a Ministry can properly require more than one Parliamentary Secretary. We felt that it was a good point that, this Ministry being set up as a permanent Ministry, it should have only one Parliamentary Secretary once we get out of the war period. This Amendment, and the other Government Amendments to this Clause, are designed to produce that result. Actually, the procedure we have adopted is this: We have taken as the period the Ministers of the Crown (Emergency Appointments) Act, which empowers Ministers to be appointed by the Crown and sit in this House for the purpose of exercising functions connected with the prosecution of the war. When that Act was introduced it did not contain any provision as to it being repealed on a specific date. But in 1942, that point having been raised, we provided for it in the House of Commons (Disqualification). Act of that year. The Act provided that these emergency appointments should be repealed by Order in Council when the emergency is over.

No doubt that would be a matter for our successors, but it seems right that the office of the extra Parliamentary Secretary, which was created for war purposes, should come to an end when the emergency has ended, and that the Ministry should have only one Parliamentary Secretary. I think, from what was said in the Second Reading Debate, that the House accepted that during war-time, when special provisions were required in connection with oil and petroleum, it would not be unreasonable that there should be two Parliamentary Secretaries. Now we have agreed to what we were asked to do, namely, that there should be only one Parliamentary Secretary when we pass from war to peace.

Mr. Shinwell

I think the Attorney-General has accurately reflected the opinion of Members who discussed this matter on the Second Reading. Some Members opposite were definite in their request that there should be only one Parliamentary Secretary after the emergency period had passed, and I expressed that opinion myself. The Government, therefore, have acted wisely. But I am not quite clear whether at this stage we are talking on this group of Amendments, some of which are consequential.

The Deputy-Chairman (Mr. Charles Williams)

If the Committee approve, I think we might consider the Government Amendments on this Clause together. They all seem to cover the same point, but if anyone wants to divide on an Amendment, that can be done.

Mr. Shinwell

I am obliged, because I want to raise a point which arises on the final Government Amendment which deals with this matter. It provides that during the war period there should be two Parliamentary Secretaries, and I imagine that that is generally acceptable to the Committee. But it raises a point upon which I would like a little information. I understand—and I am open to correction—that at present one Parliamentary Secretary receives a salary, explicitly laid down in the Act of Parliament which provided for the setting up of the Ministry of Mines. That was at the rate of £1,500 a year. I am informed, however, that the other Parliamentary Secretary, for whom no provision was made in the original Act which set up the Ministry many years ago, receives £2,000 a year.

Major Lloyd George

That is so.

Mr. Shinwell

Yes, and I am not clear whether the Government are entitled to pay £2,000, which is 500 more than the amount which was stipulated for one Parliamentary Secretary. I understand that my right hon. Friend the Member for Ladywood (Mr. G. Lloyd), who is regarded as the Secretary for Petroleum, receives £2,000 a year, whereas my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Normanton (Mr. T. Smith) receives £1,500 a year. I am not discussing the point of whether one deserves more than the other, or whether there should be any differentiation; all I ask is whether the Government were legally entitled, under the provisions of the original Act, or any subsequent Act, to pay more than £1,500. Apparently, this point has caused the Attorney-General and my right hon. and gallant Friend to enter into consultations. I hope it does not mean that the Government will have to come forward with an Indemnity Bill, although it might well mean that. Nor do I wish to be accused of precipitating a political crisis, but it is a point which I think is in Order because it arises out of a Government Amendment on this matter. If the Government propose that two Parliamentary Secretaries should remain until the end of the emergency then we are entitled to ask what their salaries are to be, whether there is any differentiation and, if so, under what provisions of an Act of Parliament that differentiation is provided for?

Captain Duncan

I think the hon. Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) is to be congratulated on his researches into the salaries of the two Parliamentary Secretaries to this Ministry. I, also, await with interest the result of the discussions which have just been actively pursued on the Front Bench and elsewhere. The question I want to ask, however, is: Which one, in future, will get what? The Attorney-General has just said that that is easy, and I am glad to hear it. We accept these Government Amendments as crumbs of comfort and as showing that there is one lesson to be learned from them, if not more. The Secretary for Petroleum is going out of office at a moment when we are likely to get more petrol. We must not, therefore, expect to get more coal by having more Ministers; we ought to expect more coal by having fewer Ministers.

Mr. Shinwell

Do I understand the hon. and gallant Gentleman to mean that if we abolish the Ministry entirely we ought to get more coal?

Captain Duncan

Yes, that was my point on the Second Reading.

Mr. Lewis

I would like to thank the Attorney-General, and also my right hon. and gallant Friend, for having so completely met the criticism which I made on the Second Reading on this matter. In the circumstances, I shall not desire to move any of the Amendments standing in my name.

Major Lloyd George

The researches of my hon. Friend the Member for Seaham (Mr. Shinwell) were not really so necessary as all that. As I understand it, the fact is that my right hon. Friend the Member for Ladywood (Mr. G. Lloyd) was appointed Secretary for Mines under the Ministers of the Crown (Emergency Appointments) Act, 1937. Later, when the office of Secretary for Petroleum was created under the same Act, he became Secretary far Petroleum at a salary of £2,000 a year and when this Ministry was set up it was, I think, specified—I regret I have not the actual words with me—that he would continue to receive a salary of £2,000 in respect of his duties as a Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Fuel and Power and as Chairman of the Oil Control Board.

The Attorney-General

I would like to point out that there is to be only one Parliamentary Secretary, who will receive the salary of an ordinary Parliamentary Secretary, which is at present £,1,500 a year.

Mr. Shinwell

Are we to understand that at the end of the emergency period it is the Government's intention to abolish the office of Secretary for Petroleum?

Major Lloyd George

We can have only one Parliamentary Secretary, The Oil Control Board, of which my right hon. Friend the Member for Lady wood is Chairman, will probably come to an end, I cannot say; but at any rate there can be only one Parliamentary Secretary in the Ministry.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In page 2, line 14, leave out from "appoint," to the first "and," in line 15, and insert, "a Parliamentary Secretary."

In line 20, leave out "any," and insert" the."

In line 26, leave out the second "any," and insert "the."

In line 32, at the end, add: (4) Until the date upon which the repeal of the Ministers of the Crown (Emergency Appointments) Act, 1939, takes effect under Section three of the Ministers of the Crown and House of Commons Disqualification Act, 1942, two persons may hold office together as Parliamentary Secretaries to the Ministry of Fuel and Power, and accordingly the foregoing provisions of this Section shall have effect, until that date, as if in Sub-section (r) for the words 'a Parliamentary Secretary' there were substituted the words not more than two Parliamentary Secretaries, 'and as if in Sub-section (2) for the words' the Parliamentary Secretary,' in both places where those words occur, there were substituted the words any Parliamentary Secretary.'"—[Major Lloyd George.]

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 4 and 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.