CLAUSE 10.—(Power to fix remuneration and holidays.) (Hansard, 1 February 1945)

§ Mr. Erskine-Hill (Edinburgh, North)
I want to raise on this Clause a matter of very great importance to the small business world. There is no proper safeguard for the many varieties of small traders, particularly in the distributive trades. The actual formation of the wages council is going to be in the hands of the Minister, but two representatives or more must represent trade organisations of employers, and two representatives or more must represent the trades unions. If one thinks of the distributive trade, the natural representation will be that of the large employers, because the small men have very few organisations between them.

§ The Deputy-Chairman
Will the hon. and learned Member please tell me where this arises under this Clause?

§ Mr. Erskine-Hill
I will, certainly. The actual remedy under Clause 10 (3) refers to representations made by any organisation to the wages council concerned. It is of the utmost moment, in considering the point, to know who the representatives on the wages councils are to be. It is essential that representations should be allowed to be made in favour of those small people who, as far as this Bill is concerned, have no representation and no safeguard. My submission to you, Mr. Williams, is that it is of the utmost appositeness to this Clause, because the only remedy provided by the Bill for these small people is contained in the Clause. You must consider who the wages council are going to be, in relation to this Clause, in order to know the position of these small traders. The natural representation in the distributive trade is that of the large organisations concerned and the small men who are not organised may not have any representation at all. The Minister may tell us that he has some idea of safeguarding the small man's position. I do not think that the Committee ought to part with this Clause until we have had some explanation from him.
A council may well be made up of the large concerns, co-operative stores and so on, as representing the employers, and of the trades unions representing the employees in the large concerns. It is of 1667 the utmost importance that the small man should be in a position to state his particular case. For example, the man who keeps a newspaper-tobacconist shop wants labour for two or three hours in the morning during the delivery of papers and for two or three hours in the evening for the same purpose. He does not provide the same sort of employment as the big stores, and if you have a wages council fixing a whole-time period at a definite wage it does not suit him and it is not fair. I am not suggesting that there should be two rates of payment for the same work, but the requirements of the small trader are limited and he ought to have an opportunity of stating his case for a consequent reduction of his liability.
I do not think that Sub-section (3) meets the point at all. Representations can be made to the wages council which may represent, as far as this Bill is concerned, just those people who are against the man concerned, but he has no rights whatever of being heard. I ask the Minister to consider this as a most important matter, and see whether some machinery cannot be provided, which will allow a man to give evidence and state his case before some tribunal, whether it be a special tribunal set up by the Minister or whether it be the wages council proposed under the Bill. It is of paramount importance to the small trader that he should not find himself in the position of having a tribunal consisting wholly or largely of those whose interests may be opposed to him, with no opportunity of stating his case and having the particular circumstances of his trade considered before an order is made. There are powers given in Sub-section (6) to deal with alterations but the powers of altering the Regulations can only satisfactorily be used if the tribunal considering the whole case is in possession of all the facts. I do not think that it is enough or at all fair to the small trader that he should be limited to making written representations. I should like an answer from the Minister.
As far as the small trader is concerned—and I have documentary evidence of it in my pocket—he regards this Bill as allowing big boss interests to judge his case on the tribunal, and the biggest boss of all is the Department over which the right hon. Gentleman broods so benevolently. I want the Minister to re-assure 1668 these people that there will be some machinery by means of which the small trader can state his case. No one wants sweated labour, whether it be the small man or the large man, but everyone wants justice for the small man and to make certain that he is not put out of business because the regulations made for him by others with different interests do not take into consideration the particular difficulties with which he is faced.

§ Mr. Guy (Poplar, South)
Is the hon. and learned Member not aware that most if not all of the small traders and the smaller concerns are members of the local ratepayers' association or chamber of commerce and have, therefore, an opportunity of putting their views forward?

§ Mr. Erskine-Hill
Many of the small traders are not members of any association, but even granting that they do belong to such associations, there is no guarantee under this Bill that such associations would be represented on the wages council. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that point because it enables me to make my point still clearer. The Psalmist's complaint against the wicked man was that God was not in all his thoughts. My complaint against the Minister in this case—which I hope he will prove to be wrong—is that the small trader has not been in any of his thoughts, in framing this Bill. I would ask the Committee to see that the Minister gives us some satisfactory assurance, so that the small trader is assured of being fairly dealt with after he is given an opportunity of stating his case fully to ensure that his case is considered and to guarantee that he will have fair play under the Bill while, at the same time, it is seen that, like everybody else, he must not in any way impose conditions which would amount to sweated labour. The actual work that is done and the skill of the particular worker ought to be taken into account. These things are vital to the issue, but I ask the Committee to see that the small man and the small business have fair play.

§ Mr. Bevin
My hon. and learned Friend has some wonderful similes to draw and he tells me that I brood over the Department. When this Bill has been passed, I hope that I shall get out of the brooding stage. He links me up with the Psalmist and various other things.

§ Mr. Erskine-Hill
I linked the right hon. Gentleman up with the wicked man.

§ The Deputy-Chairman
The right hon. Gentleman and the hon. and learned Member are both getting far away from realities when they talk about the Psalmist on this Clause. I am not sure, even yet, whether the hon. and learned Member is quite in Order in raising this point.

§ Mr. Bevin
The Clause really covers the point about which my hon. and learned Friend has been expressing his fears. The first duty that I have to carry out, is to see that the wages council is representative. It will have to include people, I presume, from organisations or who represent the small man. I accept his view that the small man must not be permitted to get on as the result of sweated labour.

§ Mr. Erskine-Hill
Hear, hear.

§ Mr. Bevin
I see that we are on common ground. Samuel Smiles may not be very widely read in the future. The Clause allows the wages council, not of necessity to fix one wage for all, but to fix a variety of wages according to the nature of the work or of the district. In the Road Haulage Wages Act, the wages board has the task of dealing with the road haulage plant in the country, in small towns and in the large towns. There are three or four grades fixed which apply under the orders, and the same thing applies, and will apply, to these orders. I understand that joint industrial councils which have been operating during the war have made a variety of arrangements, all of which can be incorporated. If my hon. and learned Friend thinks—and I know what he has in his mind—that the co-operative and multiple shops and the chain stores simply set down what everybody has to pay in some out-of-the-way place, I must tell him that that is not how the councils will work. They will take into account the conditions that are obtaining just as the Joint Industrial Councils do now. In the printing, building and a number of other trades, there is a whole system of graded wages, whether they apply to the country, the town or the big man or the little man. That is exactly how these councils are intended to work, and all the power to do that has been incorporated in Clause 10, and it is on that basis that the councils will he enabled to work. There will be flexibility under this Bill and the position 1670 will not be as rigid as under the Trade Boards Act. The Wages Councils Bill gives the choice of fixing a minimum wage, to apply to, say, London, or to the Highlands. This provision allows a flexibility in dealing with the different districts throughout the country.

§ Mr. Erskine-Hill
Will the right hon. Gentleman deal with the question of providing machinery whereby it would he possible for small traders to be heard? Will he consider this before the Report stage?

§ Mr. Bevin
I cannot add any other machinery. The wages council must take into consideration representations made to them.

§ Mr. Erskine-Hill
In writing?

§ Mr. Bevin
In writing. I cannot go back on that. If the representations are made in writing, they must then, as I said on the previous Clause, make all the necessary investigations. But the first complaint must be in writing: otherwise, they cannot do anything. That is the case with a Royal Commission or anything else.

§ Mr. Erskine-Hill
Does that mean that, after the complaint has gone in, in writing, there will be a right, unless the complaint is a frivolous one, for the man to be heard?

§ Mr. Bevin
Yes, that is so.