§ Mr. Ross Taylor (Woodbridge)I beg to move, in page 16, line 4, to leave out from "undertaking," to end of Subsection, and insert:
other than land used for offices, showrooms or dwelling-houses; and(b) land which or an interest in or over which is held for eventual use for that purpose, other than land for which there is available for acquisition on reasonable terms by the person carrying on the statutory undertaking other land which, by reason of its nature and situation and having regard to the purpose of intended user of the land which or an interest in or over which is so held, could be substituted without detriment to that undertaking.1077 The object of the Clause is to set up a special procedure where land is to be compulsorily purchased. The Clause provides that, where land is purchased, compensation shall be assessed in accordance with the provisions of the Fourth Schedule. Two classes of public utility undertaking are mentioned in the Clause, those dealing with transport, and undertakings for the supply of electricity, gas, hydraulic power or water. As this special procedure is being set up, it is important that the land to which it applies should be fairly defined. If the Committee will look at the later part of Sub-section (1) they will see that the drafting appears to be somewhat obscure. It reads:Subject to the provisions of this Section in the case of land to which this Section applies, that is to say, land which is used for the purpose of the carrying on of a statutory undertaking, or in which an interest is held for that purpose"—Here is where the difficulty arises—other than any such land which is in respect of its nature or situation comparable rather with the generality of land as respects which those enactments have effect than of land which is used, or in which interests are held, for the purpose of the carrying on of statutory undertakings.The object of the Amendment is to make the Clause a little clearer, and the effect would be that the Clause would apply to all land used for the purpose of the statutory undertaking, except that which is held for offices, showrooms and dwelling houses, to which the ordinary procedure applies. It applies to all land which the public utility undertakings hold for eventual use unless other land is available for acquisition on reasonable terms and can, by reason of its nature, and situation, and having regard to the purpose for which it was eventually intended to use the land, be equally suitable to the undertaking.I think that makes the position perfectly clear, so far as public utilities to which I referred are concerned. I realise that the wording may not meet with the approval of the Minister, but I hope he will consider making some Amendment or finding some other form of words which will meet the difficulty that exists.
§ The Solicitor-GeneralI appreciate the difficulty which is in the mind of my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment, and I am sure that he, in turn, appreciates the difficulty of the draftsman with this 1078 material. We could all put it more shortly, but we want to distinguish between operational and non-operational land. When you try to put that in words which cover every possible situation, it becomes a matter of great difficulty. Without any intention to attack it, perhaps I might take my hon. Friend's proposal and show the difficulty that his wording, in turn, creates. His proposal would be at once too narrow and too wide. It would be too narrow, because offices, showrooms and dwelling houses do not include all kinds of non-operational land. You get railway hotels in the country not connected with the system, which would come into the same position. At the same time, the wording is too wide, because you constantly get an office—you may get a dwelling house—which is directly connected with the operations. Therefore we have tried to define it with reference to the generality of land, and I can assure my hon. Friend that very careful consideration has been given to this. I think, and I should so respectfully advise the Committee, that is the best definition, but I am quite aware that it is a difficult problem, and if my hon. Friend would agree, in the time between this and another stage, to make any suggestions or to discuss the matter with me or my right hon. Friend we should be only too pleased to do so because the object before us all is the same, to get as clear a definition as we can. I hope he will be satisfied with that, and I can assure him I will be only too pleased to discuss the matter further with him if he should so agree.
§ Mr. Ross TaylorIn view of the very kind offer of the Solicitor-General to discuss the matter, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Mr. Manningham-BullerI beg to move, in page 16, line 15, to leave out "Department," and insert "Minister."
If one looks at the Bill one sees the words "appropriate Department," and if one looks at page 17, one sees these words again. It seems to me rather odd to refer to a Minister as an appropriate Department, and for the purpose of correct language this Amendment and another Amendment of a similar nature have been put down. It seems to me quite wrong 1079 that we should refer to any Minister as a Department.
§ The Solicitor-GeneralAgain, I have great sympathy with the mover of the Amendment, but again I must ask the sympathy of the Committee for the position of the draftsman. The Committee will appreciate there are two Ministers concerned here. There is the Minister of Town and Country Planning, and the Minister who is, if I may use ordinary language, the godfather of the statutory undertakers, as the Minister of Health is for the water undertakers, the Ministry of Fuel and Power for gas and the Ministry of Transport for railways and so on. Therefore, while we have to distinguish as a matter of drafting between these two Ministers it seems to us that the "appropriate Department," that being defined as my hon. Friend has pointed out to the Committee, in the Sub-section on page 17, would clarify it and make it easier to read. There is the other point that at the moment, as my hon. Friend pointed out, all the statutory undertakers are the godchildren of Ministers who happen to be called Ministers. At earlier stages in the constitutional history of this country they were under the Board of Trade and various other entities—not to use the word my hon. Friend does not like—and it is possible they might revert again. I would ask him to leave it in this way: I assure him and the Committee that there is no sinister purpose behind the use of the word "Department." It is not a new attempt at bureaucracy or anything of that kind, but simply a matter of getting the best sounding and most easily understood word. I think if, my hon. Friend having heard my explanation and our difficulty, would allow us to reconsider it, the Minister and I will consider his suggestion, and will also consider whether we can find some word which would not offend him and serve the purpose. If we can we will. We realise the difficulty and wish to meet it.
§ 7.15 p.m.
§ Sir J. MellorCould not the draftsman avail himself of the principle of collective Ministerial responsibility, and simply use the expression "any Minister" or "other Minister" or "a Minister"? To-day the Government resisted an Amendment I moved requiring consulta- 1080 tions with the Minister of Agriculture on the ground of the doctrine of collective Ministerial responsibility, which they said would be infringed by my Amendment. Surely here, where it is suggested that the draftsman might be involved in confusion, this could be done?
§ The Solicitor-GeneralIf the Committee will allow me to answer my hon. Friend, I would say that I know that the point has been worrying him on another discussion. The case he referred to was that of a Ministerial certificate. Where a clearly defined statutory duty like giving a certificate or making an Order is placed on a Minister, then it is not only constitutionally correct, but essential for its working to name the Minister on whom the statutory duty is laid. When it is the mere design as to the general function of Government such as consultations between His Majesty's Ministers or their Departments it comes under the rule that the Government speak as one. Where a clearly defined statutory duty is laid it has to be laid on one or two Ministers.
§ Mr. Manningham-BullerI do not follow the drafting difficulty, but in view of what the Solicitor-General has said, and in the hope that something will be done in regard to this derogatory description of Ministers in the Bill, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Amendment made: In page 16, line 25, after "applies," insert: "then, subject to the provisions of Sub-section (5) of this Section."—[The Solicitor-General.]
§ The Solicitor-GeneralI beg to move, in page 17, line 4, at end, insert:
(5) Where an order in relation to which Sub-section (3) of this Section would apart from this Sub-section have effect as respects any land is an order under Sub-section (1) of Section two or under Section four of this Act authorising the compulsory purchase of that land as being land as to which an order under Section one of this Act is in force, the following provisions shall have effect, that is to say—The purpose of this Amendment is to define when a statutory undertaker qualifies for his special treatment, that is, at the stage that he must make his representations to his godparent Minister within the period, which is limited for objections to Clause 1 order. Having done that, if he makes objection he will be excluded from the order, and the special treatment will be accorded to him. The reason is that hitherto the only plan, when the property of statutory undertakers could be compulsorily acquired, was for certain road-widening purposes. Now it is essential they should be acquired for the planning purposes of this Bill. It is, at the same time, necessary to give them protection because they are creatures of statutory powers, acting under the statutory powers they have obtained. Therefore, if they make objection within the time I have described, special treatment will apply. If they do not make an objection, they do not get the special treatment. That is the effect of this rather lengthy Amendment.
- (a) Sub-section (3) of this Section shall not have effect as respects the land in question unless within the time allowed for making objections to the application for the relevant order under Section one of this Act the person carrying on a statutory undertaking has made to the appropriate department in the prescribed manner a representation that the land in question is land to which this Section applies:
1081 - (b) where such a representation is so made as respects any land the Minister and the appropriate Department may make under this Sub-section an order which shall be provisional only and shall be of no effect until confirmed by Parliament, declaring that it is expedient that that land should be subject to compulsory purchase, and if such an order has taken effect as respects the land in question. Sub-section (3) of this Section shall not have effect as respects it."
§ Earl WintertonI would like to call attention to the extraordinary wording of the first part of this Amendment:
(5) Where an order in relation to which Subsection (3) of this Section would apart from this Subsection have effect as respects any land is an order under Subsection (1) of section two or under section four of this Act authorising the compulsory purchase. …We are always hearing in the courts, I am sorry to say, of the extraordinarily ungrammatical way in which we do business. It is not unreasonable to expect the draftsman—I have had some experience of the draftsman, and he is a very able person—to put this into a simpler form. It reduces Statutes and the work of this Committee to a farce when words of that nature are put in. Surely it is possible to find simpler language.
§ The Solicitor-GeneralIn answer to my Noble Friend's remarks, which express a view with which we are all concerned, I might say that I should have the 1082 greatest pleasure in looking into the point. My Noble Friend will appreciate that it is difficult to combine all the necessary considerations, and I am sure that, out of his fund of sympathy, he will sympathise with the difficulties of the draftsmen therein. But that is only another reason why we should have another look at it and do our best to carry out his desire.
§ Mr. PrittI would like to say a word or two about the difficulties of draftsmen and dràfting. I sympathise with the laymen who say that it takes about 10 minutes to see what such a provision means. But what the draftsman has to do is to put, so far as he can—human nature being always imperfect—such a provision into words which, after the 10 minutes' study, will have only one meaning. I have many a time taken something like this and tried to put it into language that would be more intelligible to laymen. It has usually come out three times as long. That does not matter much, but it has also come out with greater ambiguity. I do not know any of the Parliamentary draftsmen—I am not sticking up for my cousin, or anything of that sort—but this is one of the difficulties of our language. Such phrasing as this is the only clear and definite language that can be used when dealing with complicated things. I am sure that the Solicitor-General will try to do better, and I am sure that he will fail.
§ Earl WintertonThat may be true, but the fact is that every unfortunate subject of the Crown who is affected has to go to his lawyers, because he cannot understand it. It may mean something to the lawyers, but it does not to anybody else. It is becoming a scandal the way people have constantly to take legal advice because Parliament is incapable of expressing itself in what, after all, is one of the simplest languages in the world.
Amendment agreed to.
§ The Solicitor-GeneralI beg to move, in page 17, line 6, after "effect," to insert:
as respects the interest of the person by whom the undertaking in question is being carried on.This Amendment and the next are drafting Amendments introducing the compensation provisions.Amendment agreed to. 1083 Further Amendment made: In page 17, line 7, leave out from "purchase" to end of Sub-section; and insert:
under this Part of this Act of land to which this section applies."—[The Solicitor-General.]
§ The Solicitor-GeneralI beg to move, in page 17, line 8, at the end, to insert:
including compensation to be estimated in connection with the purchase for damage sustained by reason of the severing of land the subject thereof from other land held therewith or otherwise injuriously affecting such other land, and compensation to be so estimated for disturbance or any other matter not directly based on the value of land.I said that the other two Amendments introduced the compensation provisions. This Amendment makes clear that the compensation provisions include the usual matters of severance, injurious affection, and disturbance.Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.