§ Sir H. WilliamsI beg to move, in page 2, line 1, to leave out "any," and insert "a."
There are two Amendments down to this Clause and my name is attached to both, but the second one is the one which, I think, Mr. Williams, you have called. After my hon. Friends and I had put it down, it seemed to me that the word "a" was better than "the." This Amendment should be read in conjunction with the Amendments to Clause 4:
Page 2, line 18, leave out 'any,' and insert 'the.'Page 2, line 25, leave out from 'member,' to end of Clause.We had a Debate on Friday on whether there should be more than one Parliamentary Secretary under this Ministry, and I urged very strongly that one ought to be enough. Other hon. Members agreed with me, but I do not know what view the Government take. I am feeling a little hopeful that they do not want to see that spectacle of the other House being filled with retired gentlemen at £1,500 a year, which is one of the delightful possibilities under this Bill, and, in the cheerful anticipation that some Minister is going to answer me kindly on this occasion, I beg to move.
§ Mr. Ralph Etherton (Stretford)I wish to support the Amendment. I prefer the Amendment which you called, Mr. Williams, to the one which stood in my name. Obviously "a" is more specific than "the" and will enable only one Parliamentary Secretary to be appointed, instead of one or more. The object of the Amendment which I am supporting is to remove uncertainty and make the intention clear. I feel sure that no hon. Members will want to leave the matter so that any number of Parliamentary Secretaries may be appointed. Clearly, in this instance, one is sufficient, and I hope the Government will accept the Amendment.
§ The Attorney-GeneralThe Government are clear that this Minister will not require more than one Parliamentary Secretary, and this being so, we are agreed that it is desirable that it should appear on the face of the Bill, and we accordingly recommend the Committee to accept this and the consequential Amendment.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
§ Sir H. WilliamsHon. Members will realise that the Parliamentary Secretary is appointed by the Minister, but how Parliamentary Secretaries come into being is a little curious. The Prime Minister invites His Majesty to approve of them and, after these motions have been gone through, I believe that the Minister, under a seal, appoints them. Here there is no reference either to the Prime Minister or to His Majesty. It is just a flat appointment by the Minister, and I am not certain about it. I have not had time to look it up, but I think it is unusual. In the Ministers and Secretaries Act, 1916, Chapter 68, the thing is rather differently worded, and I do not know whether the point has been considered. For example, in Section 9, Sub-section (2) it says:
Notwithstanding anything in any Act, an additional Parliamentary Under-Secretary may be appointed to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs."Appointed to," not "by." Will the Attorney-General be good enough to explain? Like me, he likes these things done tidily, and, when we are trying to do the same kind of thing, we ought always to do it in the same kind of way, and I am just wondering why the Govern- 1892 ment have chosen those words "appointed by the Minister" instead of "to the Minister." As I understand it, at the present time, though the actual formality of appointing is done by the Minister, the Prime Minister says he has a vacancy and invites somebody to fill it. As a matter of wisdom and courtesy, he probably does consult the senior Minister, but the appointment is by the Prime Minister subject to the approval of His Majesty. Those words of the Act of 1916 are rather interesting, because "appointed to" clearly indicates somebody else, and not that the Minister makes the appointment. I should like the Attorney-General to look into the point and let us have his view on the matter.
§ 3.45 p.m.
§ Mr. Rhys DaviesI was very pleased that the right hon. and learned Gentleman looked kindly at the Amendment for one Parliamentary Secretary, because I understand that, since the war began, we have established eight new Government Departments, and, of course, this present Bill will make the ninth. At the beginning of the war, we had 26 Ministers; now we have 39. We had 24 Parliamentary Secretaries in 1939; we now have 40. Consequently, the House of Commons has to be careful what it is doing, lest the majority of the Members of this House might become Government servants, which, of course, would be a calamity and take us right into the totalitarian stage. I am pleased that this new Ministry is being set up, but I would not like to see it so overburdened with under-secretaries to the extent that it might be challenged later on by those who are not enamoured of the Ministry at all.
§ The Attorney-GeneralI am grateful to my hon. Friend, but I think it is all right. I think the Sub-section to which he refers deals with the case of the existing enactments, so that there could be—I will not beg the question—more than one Parliamentary Under-Secretary at the Foreign Office, because the Act provides that an additional Under-Secretary may be appointed to the Secretary of State.
§ Sir H. WilliamsTo the Secretary of State, not by him.
§ The Attorney-GeneralThis Act may not be very happily worded, but, in Section 10, one sees a general power given to any Minister to appoint Secretaries.
§ Sir H. WilliamsBut not Parliamentary Secretaries.
§ The Attorney-GeneralWell, I am not sure. I hope my hon. Friend will not press for an alteration. We will look into it. We think we have it right, but if we have not we will see what can be done.