§ Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Boulton.]
§ Mr. Boothby (Aberdeen and Kincardine, Eastern)I make no apology for raising a question in which some of us take a great interest, and about which some of us feel a certain anxiety, and that is the question of industrial reconstruction in Scotland after the war. We all know the very great interest that the Secretary of State takes in the matter. We have no anxiety on the score of lack of interest on his part; but there are certain questions which I should like to put to him which, I think, would be of interest to many in Scotland. The occasions when questions on purely Scottish matters can be raised are, unfortunately, in present circumstances, necessarily rather few and far between. I want to deal, almost in telegraphic form, with several points, and to ask certain specific questions. The first is in connection with what I believe to be the most urgent problem of all, namely, the question of housing. Upon housing practically the whole of our industrial reconstruction after the war must ultimately depend; and it is a tragedy that I suppose we are at the moment one of the worst-housed countries in Europe. It came as a great shock to many of us when the Secretary of State told us the other day that out of 1,000 houses projected during the last 12 months, only four had been built; and when he suggested that there had been something of a ramp in connection with the matter.
I want to ask my right hon. Friend what steps are being taken to prevent similar ramps in the future, and to ensure the bulk provision later on of the necessary materials, at reasonable prices, for carrying out the housing programme in Scotland which every Member knows to be vitally necessary. Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that adequate plans for housing schemes after the war are being made by the local authorities, and on a sufficiently comprehensive scale? The question is becoming urgent, not only in the rural districts, which I know more about as I represent a rural constituency, but also in the congested areas of Glasgow, Dundee and Edinburgh. The question is indeed becoming so urgent that it will have to have an absolute priority 430 when the war is over. We do not want to be held up for a single moment by any lack of plans, or of comprehensive schemes on a big enough scale, or by a further ramp of the kind which it is suggested has taken place. We must take the necessary steps, and we ought to be planning now, to ensure that the requisite raw materials will be produced and are available at reasonable prices and in sufficient quantities.
I pass from housing to land and agriculture, in order to indicate that, so far as the capital development of our rural districts in Scotland is concerned, the provision of adequate supplies of water and electricity must come first. We have already dealt with water to-day, and I do not propose to deal with it any further. With regard to electricity, I would like to ask my right hon. Friend whether he is keeping a sharp eye on any projected schemes which are coming before the Hydro-electric Board. Will he also give some assurance that he will not allow power to be diverted from the North of Scotland, which might be used for the provision of electricity in the districts surrounding, or within reasonable distance of, the actual power itself? I feel in connection with the hydro-electric scheme, of which I am a strong supporter, that it is important that Scotland should have first claim upon the output of electricity, and that the North of Scotland should have the first claim of all. I cannot touch on legislation, and I do not want to raise the question of public or private ownership; but I think it is also necessary and important that, so long as the provision of electricity on a large scale in the centre and north of Scotland remains in the hands of a private company, the Secretary of State should inform himself continuously of the projects and plans of that company. I would like him to give an assurance that he is keeping an eye not only on the present activities of the Grampian Company, but on their projected plans; because it is of vital importance that, at the earliest possible moment after the war, electricity should be brought to all our rural towns and villages in Scotland.
I am making a bird's eye view, and I must now swing on to transport, and ask my right hon. Friend what plans, if any, he has under consideration for improving the main transport facilities in Scotland. We have had endless discussions and cor- 431 respondence about the Forth Road Bridge scheme, and yet we seem to make no progress with it. I often wonder if any of us will in our lifetime see a road bridge built across the Firth of Forth. Yet it is obviously not only desirable but really necessary. I often think that if we were a Crown Colony we should have had a Forth Road Bridge long ago, because there would have been an agitation about it in this House. If we had been Nyasaland, Nigeria, or somewhere else in Africa, it would surely have happened; and it is really extraordinary that all these years should have passed without proper transport facilities across the Firth of Forth, a vital highway, passing through the very centre of Scotland. The delay has been quite remarkable.
I would like also to ask my right hon. Friend whether he has in mind the great importance of constructing, early after the war, trunk roads, on the main routes up and down the East and West coasts of Scotland, on the lines of the autobahnen of Germany before the war. We shall not want so many of them; the main trunk roads of Scotland are obvious, and I do not need to waste the time of the House in detailing them. But it is essential that we should get ahead with the construction of main trunk roads at an early date. Then there are the steamer services to the Western Isles. What about our old friend Macbrayne? Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that Macbrayne will "answer all the questions" after the war, so far as these steamer services are concerned? It may be so; but my right hon. Friend should be considering the matter. I seem to remember that he himself had a few things to say about Macbrayne in days gone by. If Macbrayne is to be what it is the fashion to call "the chosen instrument," my right hon. Friend should see that the chosen instrument is a good one. Last, but not least, there is the question of air services, particularly to the Isles.
When we come to docks and harbours, I feel that my right hon. Friend should now undertake a comprehensive survey. If we are to have our great fishing industry and our coastal shipping industry well found after the war, we must provide them with proper harbour, storage, and repair facilities. Here, again, the question of electricity comes in. We ought to find out what harbours we want, 432 and survey the whole field. We should find out what harbours are essential to the successful conduct of our merchant shipping industry and our fishing industries; and should see that those particular harbours are given a high priority to be put in first-rate condition as soon as the war is over.
As my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) knows, the whole vital question of fishing craft is being reviewed; and experiments of a tentative kind are projected and are going to be undertaken. We do not yet know the best type of craft for the fishing industry, but the Government should give a lead in the matter. This brings up the whole question of research, upon which the future of Scotland depends to a very large extent. Take the question of brine freezing, which holds out immense possibilities for the fishing industry, both white fish and herring. Are experiments now being carried out at the research station? If success is achieved, will my right hon. Friend take steps to see that the necessary freezing and storage facilities are put up at the right ports, and in the right places? If we get in first, we may acquire a trade in fish which will stand us in very good stead in the years that lie ahead. I want to know whether my right hon. Friend is keeping the whole of this research question in mind.
Finally, I want to ask my right hon. Friend his view about the whole structure and location of industry in Scotland. We ought now to survey this field very carefully. What steps are being taken to plan our industrial system after the war is over, and to attract modern industries to the localities where facilities will exist for their service, and skilled labour for their use? I know that my right hon. Friend attaches great value to the Council of Industry. I know that it is doing very valuable work—
§ Mr. Buchanan (Glasgow, Gorbals)How does the hon. Member know that?
§ Mr. BoothbyI suppose it is doing very valuable work; I believe it is. I accept the right hon. Gentleman's assurance on that point; but we should not always be told, when industrial questions of great importance arise, that they are matters for this Council of Industry, or some development council, or whatever it may be. These are not statutory bodies, they are 433 responsible to nobody. They are advisory bodies to the Secretary of State on whom, in the final analysis, responsibility lies. He must answer to the House in respect of these vital matters.
About three years ago the right hon. Gentleman invited Scottish Members to attend a conference in St. Andrew's House which raised high hopes in my heart. But what happened? I except his own contribution, but we listened to a number of formal, set speeches of almost unparalleled dreariness. Then we were given a very good tea, and went home. Nobody was invited to express their views at that conference. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman—this is the concrete suggestion I have to make to him now—whether he will not seriously consider, not necessarily in the next few months when many things may be happening, inviting the Scottish Members of Parliament to assemble together in the Parliament House in Edinburgh to consider an agenda submitted by him, and to express their view on the whole situation in Scotland and on the state of the nation. It is not a proposition for Home Rule; but Scottish Members do not get, and in existing circumstances cannot get, the time they would like in this House to consider purely Scottish affairs. I think it would do a tremendous lot of good in Scotland generally if we could meet, say, once a year, in the Parliament House in Edinburgh to consider for perhaps two or three days an agenda placed before us by the Secretary of State. I believe that nothing but good would come from an assembly of that kind; and I ask the right hon. Gentleman to give the question his very serious consideration.
§ Mr. Buchanan (Glasgow, Gorbals)I intervene for a moment to raise two matters. I think it rather unfortunate for my hon. Friend to raise the question of the Council of State. I do not wish to start to discuss that to-day, but if I had time I would like to say some not too complimentary things about the Council, who they are and what they have done. But I will leave that aside. As to the calling of an Edinburgh conference, I have no objection to a conference being called. I have attended one or two. Naturally, I am a cautious man with money. I am not unlike my right hon. Friend in that respect, and I hate spending money going to Edinburgh to see a cinema show when I could have seen one in my own 434 division for nothing. That is what I saw in Edinburgh, and the day was a sheer waste of time. There is one issue in Scotland, which, with all due respect, surpasses every other, and that is the housing of the people. Nothing matters without that. My hon. Friend left out the question of the development and the maintaining of the aircraft industry, which is terribly important to us in the West, for certain reasons into which I will not enter now. But we cannot attract an industry to Scotland unless people are being housed and cared for decently; it is the first preliminary. I want to say, earnestly and seriously, to the Secretary of State: "Demand for Scotland now that we proceed with the building of houses." I ask him seriously to consider whether in the nature of things we cannot in Scotland do more in the way of housing than we are doing. That is all I want to say. I feel that if we are to attract industry to Scotland the first thing we have to show is that people are housed in a decent and satisfactory fashion.
§ The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. T. Johnston)The hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) raised, I think, twelve issues—I do not know whether he forgot any—and each of these, as I am sure he is well aware, deserves and requires very much longer time to answer than is allotted to me to-day. But I will do my best to answer, very briefly. The first question was whether we were taking steps to stop the ramp in building prices which occurred after the last war, and of which there was some sign of appearing again. I want to make it perfectly clear that I blame no one in particular for that increase in prices. I understand that a lot of factors contributed to the £1,815 house price to which I referred the other day, in an answer. I make no complaint against any particular contractor or group of contractors or anybody else: I merely say that I refused to assent to a price of £1,815. I believe that, in the long run, such a price would be disastrous to building. The hon. Member asked whether we were taking steps to see that there would be adequate provision of housing, at a reasonable price. All I can say is that I am doing my best to see that Scotland gets a reasonable share of what emergency housing it is possible to produce by the end of this year, and by the beginning of peace. The 435 precise arrangements do not come within my competence, but I am doing my best.
I agree also with the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) that housing is our prime issue. We have inherited the results of years of neglect. We are in the throes of war. There are great difficulties about labour and materials everywhere. Nevertheless, we must all bend every energy to make certain that, at the earliest possible moment, the greatest possible provision of houses is made. I was asked about the hydro-electric scheme, and whether we would take steps to see that local populations got first priority. The answer is, yes. It is provided specifically in the Act that the local population's needs are to be the first priority, and it is only the balance after local consumption is met that is exported, at a regulated price, to the grid. Fourthly, my hon. Friend asked whether we were taking power to see that the Grampian Company were doing their job. All new producion in the North of Scotland region is now by the Hydro-Electric Development Act made the function solely of the Hydro-Electric Board. Any further supplies that the Grampian Company want they have to get from the Hydro-Electric Board.
Fifthly, I was asked whether we were taking steps to see that main transport facilities were being provided in Scotland. That is a matter for the Ministry of War Transport, but I can assure my hon. Friend that all these considerations do not escape our attention at the Scottish Office, and that we weigh in wherever we can to assist in securing adequate transport facilities. About the Forth Road Bridge, I cannot, at this moment, offer an opinion. The next point, again, is a matter for the Ministry of War Transport, but I can assure my hon. Friend that my conception of the steamer service and of the trunk road to the Isles has not abated in the slightest from the time when I shifted from the other side of the House to this, and that any steps that I can take to assure that transport facilities will be adequate and reasonable to the Outer Isles will be undertaken. The other question was about air services. That is outside my jurisdiction. We take whatever opportunities are afforded us of making certain that Scottish civil aviation facilities are at least as reasonable as the facilities provided in other parts of the country.
436 The next question concerns docks and harbours. I am afraid I cannot answer that without notice, or say how far a survey could be undertaken in war time. I am sure that nobody knows better than my hon. Friend that we have been endeavouring in Scotland to maintain the existing harbour facilities at as reasonable a level as possible under war time difficulties. The hon. Member spoke about quick freeze and research. I presume he was referring to the Torry Research Station. I went up to see it and I was profoundly impressed by it. I think it has magnificent possibilities for stabilising supplies, for ensuring that there is no further waste of fish on our coasts and for ensuring that food supplies are provided with greater regularity to our industrial population. Any step that I can take, to make certain that the quick freeze experiment is made available to the Herring Industry Board and to other fishing Boards which I hope will be set up at no distant date, will certainly be taken.
The hon. Member also spoke about the location of industry in Scotland. That leads me far afield, and I am afraid I would only do a gross injustice to our case if I attempted to answer that. I will conclude by referring to his proposal that I should invite Scottish Members of Parliament to meet at St. Andrew's House, Edinburgh, for a three-day session.
§ Mr. BoothbyBetter still, the Parliament House.
§ Mr. JohnstonThe proposal, as I understand it, is that Scottish Members should be invited to meet in Edinburgh. I replied to a Question the other day to say that I have been strongly advised that transport facilities were so difficult in these days that hon. Members for Scottish constituencies did not wish to come to Edinburgh, but I said, and I repeat here, that if, through the usual channels, there is any indication whatever that the proposal put forward by my hon. Friend would be welcomed by a large number—I do not say even a majority, but by a large number—of Scottish Members, I would be willing, either in Edinburgh, London, or anywhere else, to invite them to come for discussions on how best we can jointly help to improve conditions in Scotland.
§ Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.