EIGHTH SCHEDULE.—(Amendment of Enactments.) (Hansard, 11 May 1944)

§ Mr. Butler
I beg to move, in page 97, line 20, at the end, to insert: The Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries Act, 1919. Section seven. In Sub-section (2), for the words ' under the Education Act, 1902, stand referred to the education committee,' there shall be substituted the words 'relate to the functions of local education authorities.' The object of the Amendment is to bring the wording of Section 7 (2) of the Act of 1919 into line with the new wording of the Bill.

§ Mr. Butler
I beg to move, in page 98, line 47, at the end, to insert: Section twenty-two. After Sub-section (3) there shall be inserted the following Subsection: (3A) A licence granted under this Section shall specify the times, if any, during which the child to which the licence relates may he absent from school for the purposes authorised by the licence, and for the purposes of the enactments relating to education a child who is so absent during any times so specified shall be deemed to be absent with leave granted by a person authorised in that behalf by the managers, governors or proprietor of the school. This Amendment raises a separate point. It deals with children who are given licences to perform on the stage. The position is that a local education authority, or the Board, may give licences—in fact they do so under very definite supervision and with very great care—to children over the age of 12 to perform on the stage and to undertake similar activities. There is a provision accompanying the licences for such children to receive a certain amount of education 2136 during the period for which they are given licences. I only mention this before I actually refer to the Amendment in order to make it clear to the House that these licences given to children are accompanied by very definite provisions for the children's care, welfare and education to continue in the circumstances in which they are employed.
It turned out that, under Clause 37, relating to the regular attendance at school of registered pupils, a child may be prevented from taking part in a matinee, for example, for which the child had been given a licence, and that there was a conflict between two provisions. This Amendment does not enlarge to any marked extent the general situation under which children are employed, but I know that hon. Gentlemen opposite are interested in the matter, and I can tell them that it brings the two Sections into relationship with each other.
The last word I want to say on this subject is that the employment of children in this manner will form part of the general inquiry which was referred to by the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department in the course of one of our recent Debates. Therefore, this matter is covered in every way. For those who are anxious about the employment of children at all, there is still the opportunity of the matter being looked into by the Home Office inquiry. Those who are anxious about the exactitude of the Statute which we are engaged in drawing should feel satisfied that the different parts of the Statute are brought into relationship one with the other.

§ Mr. Rhys Davies
I was very glad to hear what the right hon. Gentleman said in his last few sentences, which was to the effect that the inquiry the Home Office has promised to make into the problem of employment of school children will cover also the conditions under which children perform on the stage. That is all to the good. The point which I want to put to the House is not quite the same. Under the Bill as it stands, any child under 13 years of age will be prevented from being employed at all when the school-leaving age is raised to 15. I suppose that hon. Members will be aware that at the moment no child under 12 can be employed and that between 12 and 14 they can be employed only under certain bye-laws. I understand that, while the age is raised 2137 from 12 to 13 for one category of employment after the school-leaving age is raised from 14 to 15, similar provisions do not apply to school children engaged in stage performances. I do not know whether that is an oversight or not. I can hardly think that is so, in a Board of Education, but as this is a Coalition Government I must not be surprised at anything being left out. I would therefore ask the right hon. Gentleman to be good enough to clear that point up, that is to say, how does it come about that children engaged in stage performances do not benefit in the same way as children engaged in other occupations?

§ Mr. Butler
I can only reply with the leave of the House. I deliberately mentioned the age of 12 in order to indicate that there was a difference here. It is due to differences in the circumstances under which these children are employed. Under the licences granted, the whole circumstances are examined. In the view of the public, these children perform a valuable part in these performances. The fact that these children, when they are released by these licences for this work, get a form of supervision and continuing education, means that they not entirely outside our purview.

§ Mr. Butler
I beg to move, in page 100, line 10, to leave out "President of the Board," and to insert "Minister."
This and the following two Amendments are consequential upon our previous decision to alter the name of the office.

§ Mr. Butler
I beg to move, in page 100, line 30, to leave out "President of the Board," and to insert "Minister."—[Mr. Butler.]

§ Mr. Rhys Davies
May I ask what is going to happen to the members of the Board when we take out the words "President of the Board," and insert "Minister"?

§ Mr. Butler
The Board will live hallowed and revered in the memory of all educationists.

§ Mr. R. C. Morrison (Tottenham, North)
Will the Minister be known as "the Minister of Education" or as "the Minister of the Board of Education"?

§ Mr. Butler
The Minister of Education.