HC Deb 30 March 1944 vol 398 cc1693-7
Mr. Butler

I beg to move, in page 64, line 44, at the end, to insert: (2) Where the performance of any duty imposed by or for the purposes of this Act on a local education authority or on the managers or governors of any county school or auxiliary school is thereby made contingent upon the opinion of the authority or of the managers or governors, the Minister may nevertheless require the authority managers or governors to perform that duty if in his opinion the circumstances are such as to require the performance thereof. This is the last Clause which the Government will ask the Committee to consider to-day. I am sure that we are very much obliged to the Committee for adding 10 Clauses to the Bill to-day.

Mr. Moelwyn Hughes

If this is the last Clause which the Minister proposes to ask the Committee to deal with, may I ask how it is proposed to bring the proceedings to an end? We have only been dealing with education for two hours.

The Deputy-Chairman

We cannot discuss that matter.

Mr. C. Davies

I wish to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

The Deputy-Chairman

I have not called the hon. and learned Member. I thought he was rising to a point of Order.

Mr. Davies

Surely I am entitled to move at this hour that we report Progress.

The Deputy-Chairman

We cannot have that Motion moved right in the middle of a Minister's speech.

Mr. Davies

Considering the progress that we have made I think we are entitled to ask for that Motion.

Mr. Tinker (Leigh)

On a point of Order. Can we first of all hear the Minister's statement?

Mr. Davies

I am putting a question to the Chair that at this hour when we have been considering this Bill and we have reached a certain position we are entitled to report Progress. We have made quite a considerable amount of progress to-day.

The Deputy-Chairman

The position is quite simple. I am not accepting a Motion to report Progress in the middle of the Minister's speech.

Mr. Butler

I confess I am rather surprised. I have been trying to help the Committee. I give hon. Members my word that I should like to stay another four or five hours, but I am informed that large sections of the Committee, especially the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Davies), do not want to take now the grant Clauses. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than to take them now and stay for the rest of the clay, but I have to consider the interests of the Committee, and a lot of other people who look after us outside. I venture to suggest that the Committee would not wish to get launched into the grant Clauses now. The grant Clauses are very important, and glad as I would be to take them now I understand others are not willing to do so. Therefore, I suggest we should confine ourselves to finishing this Clause.

This Amendment I have moved is to implement undertakings given in earlier parts of our discussions. I have inserted the words "or for the purposes of this Act" instead of "by any enactment," which words appeared on the Order Paper, because the latter were regarded as too broad for the purposes of this Measure. That is why I have made this slight alteration in the words originally on the Order Paper. Under those conditions, I think it would be wise to have this power, so that the Minister may, in fact, overrule an authority or body of managers if his opinion is contrary to theirs.

Mr. Edmund Harvey (Combined English Universities)

Would the right hon. Gentleman give an instance of the kind of case in which these powers would be needed, because the Clause is very wide in its wording? Although I am sure it is intended to meet a real difficulty that might arise, it is so sweeping in its terms, that it would be helpful to have some indication of the kind of thing with which it is intended to deal.

Mr. Butler

The Committee will remember that earlier we had discussions about the possible dismissal of teachers by the body of managers on grounds that might cause dissatisfaction, that is, a disputed case that depended on the opinion of the managers. It is necessary to have someone else's opinion in case of injustice. This might seem a large power, but it has to be in the Bill, in order to have an overriding opinion in doubtful cases.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Mr. C. Davies

We have now reached a point about which I am not quite sure as this is such a long Bill. Part I covers five Clauses; then Part II covers primary and secondary education. Then there is the 'management of primary schools—

The Deputy-Chairman

We cannot, on Clause 92, go into the other Clauses again. We really must keep to the Clause itself.

Mr. Davies

That is exactly what I am coming to. We have now come to the end of the Clauses relating to administrative provisions, and we are about to start upon an entirely new matter. May I, therefore, point out that, while the House has been so full during the whole of the day, we have in this Committee at this moment somewhere about 40 Members? I think it is only right that it should be put on record that at this moment, when we are really considering the administrative provisions, which go from Clause 81 to Clause 92, there are so few Members present.

Earl Winterton

I am sorry to find myself in conflict with my hon. and learned Friend, but it is hardly fair to the Committee for him to make that observation. It is perhaps out of Order to discuss the matter at all, but I want to point out that, throughout the discussion, there has been a good attendance.

Sir G. Schuster

In the exercise of his powers under the Clause, would the Minister consider—

Mr. C. Davies

Have I not already called attention, Mr. Williams, to the fact that there are not 40 Members present?

The Deputy-Chairman

No, the hon. and learned Member said that there were somewhere about 40 Members present.

Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; Committee counted, and, 40 Members being presentin—

Sir G. Schuster

Would the Minister, in exercising his powers under this Clause, consider it a default if managers or governors failed to meet every three months? I want to get my right hon. Friend's answer to that question put on record.

Mr. Butler

I think it is valuable that the hon. Member should have brought this point to my notice. The Minister would, naturally, have to take every case on its merits, but I shall take into consideration the point the hon. Member has brought forward.

Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—[Mr. Beechman.]

Mr. Moelwyn Hughes

I rise, not with any idea of obstructing the Bill or delaying the Committee, but because I desire to register my eagerness to get on with the Bill. I am one who has attended the Committee stage of this Bill practically throughout.

Mr. Cove

The hon. and learned Member has a lot to say, too.

Mr. Hughes

I am anxious that we should make progress with the Bill. We are now in this position, that the Standing Order has been suspended, and we could go on to such time as the Minister or the Government desired. We are at a critical stage in this Measure. I do not know how far one might venture to suggest what the future programme of the Government will be, but one has heard of the possibility that we have, in the next series of Sittings, two days to deal with the remainder of the Committee stage of the Bill. From the rate of progress we have been making, two further Sitting Days, especially if the Government are going to close down on the day's work at this hour, are hardly likely to see us through the remainder of the Bill. Today, we have had, in fact, something like two hours dealing with education, and we have had five and a half hours dealing with the prestige of the Government and the constitutional position that arose as a result of the Vote of two days ago. Now it is suggested from the Treasury Bench that we should report Progress. As one of those anxious to get on with this Measure, I want to register my protest. I am prepared to sit here as long as may be necessary. I want to get on with it and I do not see why we should be asked, at this stage, to report Progress. I hope that the mover of the Motion will be prepared to reconsider the matter, arid that the Committee, or at least those of us who are interested in education, may be given an opportunity to go ahead. The Division, at the end of a five and a half hour Debate, showed an attendance 460 strong. We have not got 46 in the Chamber now. Those of us who are here now are here because we are interested in education and we are prepared to stay.

Mr. Tinker (Leigh)

I want to see an end to this farce of asking the Committee to continue. One hon. and learned Member calls a count, saying that there are not enough hon. Members to carry on, while another hon. and learned Member—I do not know whether he means it or not—says, "Carry on for several hours." Surely, that kind of thing is not meant seriously? It is ridiculous to talk about protesting against closing down now.

Earl Winterton

I support what the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) has said. As one who is never afraid to be critical of the Government, and especially of the Prime Minister, I think that it is rather unfair for the hon. and learned Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Moelwyn Hughes) to say what he has said about the Government action on this matter. On the contrary, since the Division we have had the greatest assistance from the Government, and the Committee has got through many important points with the minimum of ill-feeling and the maximum of desire to help, and it should not go out from any one Member that progress has not been made; the Government are to be congratulated upon the progress that has been made in the last two hours.

Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon the next Sitting Day.