HC Deb 23 March 1944 vol 398 cc1043-7
58. Dr. Russell Thomas

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is now in a position to make any statement in regard to the proposed committee on juvenile delinquency.

Mr. H. Morrison

In view of the length of the answer to this Question I will, with permission, give it at the end of Questions.

Later:

Mr. H. Morrison

By leave of the House I make this statement in relation to the Question:

I have been considering the subject of juvenile delinquency as part of the general problem of penal reform. It is, in my view, essential to consider this problem as a whole. Amongst both the older and younger delinquents there are offenders with widely differing characters and histories who are found guilty of widely differing offences, and the problem is to find appropriate methods of dealing with these various individuals whose common characteristic is that they have broken the law. This is a single problem with many sides. Every persistent offender has been at one time a first offender, and questions affecting the child or the adolescent offender are closely linked with questions affecting the older offenders. To assist me in dealing with this subject as a whole I have come to the conclusion that what is wanted is not another committee of inquiry but a standing committee to advise and assist the Home Office in developing a comprehensive policy of reforms and to maintain constant touch with the implementation of that policy. There have been a number of committees of inquiry. Much information has been collected and a large measure of agreement has been reached, but while much material is already available on which to base a policy of progress, there is much work still to be done in shaping that policy and translating it into action. In carrying out this work it is, I think, very desirable that the official knowledge and experience of the Home Office should be pooled with the knowledge and ideas of men and women whose experience has lain in various fields, including not only those who have been associated with the work of the courts and with the treatment of offenders but others who may approach this problem with fresh ideas and broad sympathies gained in other spheres of work.

I propose, therefore, to invite a number of suitable persons to serve on an Advisory Council constituted for the purpose of assisting the Home Secretary to draw up a programme of reforms in methods of dealing with offenders, and to advise him with regard to the various measures required to implement this programme. When this Council has been constituted I shall ask them to give special and early attention to the problems connected with juvenile delinquency. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, with whom I have been in consultation, contemplates the possibility of action in Scotland on broadly similar lines, full account being taken of the position of advisory bodies already in existence there.

Dr. Russell Thomas

Is the Home Secretary aware that the statement he has made is even better than we hoped for, and that it will be received with great interest and will be highly acceptable to many throughout the country?

Mr. Morrison

I am much obliged to my hon. Friend.

Mr. Bowles

Will the Home Secretary ask the Advisory Committee to take into account that sometimes these juvenile delinquents, when released from prison, are examined and are alleged to be found to be feeble-minded because they are not able to answer certain questions, such as how many pennies there are in half a crown, with the result that they are put away in colonies for an indefinite period? Will my right hon. Friend see that that matter is looked into by his Council?

Mr. Morrison

I am sure that that would be a matter relevant to the work of the Council.

Mr. Goldie

In view of the wonderful work done by probation officers will the Home Secretary see that the probation service is represented on the Council?

Mr. Morrison

I will certainly consider that point.

Mr. Kenneth Lindsay

Is it proposed to set up similar machinery in Scotland, where the problem is much more serious? Also, has the Home Secretary been in close consultation with the Board of Education on this matter, and will there be representatives from the teaching profession on this Advisory Council?

Mr. Morrison

Seeing that all the naughty children in the approved schools come from the elementary schools there is a point in that Question. Perhaps they ought to answer for what they have been doing. Any questions regarding Scotland should be put to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, but I think it will be found that he will be taking steps in harmony with what I propose for England and Wales.

Mr. Rhys Davies

I do not think that what my right hon. Friend has said is quite clear. Is the Advisory Council to give him advice on new legislation, or is it to be exclusively administrative, without any change in the law?

Mr. Morrison

Of course, the responsibility for proposing legislation must rest with the Home Secretary and the Government, but I should certainly imagine that advice on matters connected with new legislation lying within the field of the Advisory Council would be welcomed.

Mr. Sorensen

Will my right hon. Friend give some indication of the size of this Advisory Council, and whether they will periodically issue reports?

Mr. Morrison

I do not know about issuing reports. That is a matter for the Home Secretary of the day. With regard to the size of the Council, I am not yet clear. I do not want it to be unduly large—I think everybody will agree on that. On the other hand, if it is to be a Council of all the elements which I want represented on it, it is bound to be a body of some size.

Mr. Gallacher

Will the Home Secretary consider putting approved schools under the control and direction of the education authority? If he considers taking on a probation officer, which would be very desirable, would he also consider taking on someone who has been a juvenile delinquent under a probation officer?

Mr. Morrison

I should want to know the record of that person before appointing him. I appreciate that there are arguments in favour of, but there are also strong arguments against, the view that particular ages and stages of delinquency should be separated from consideration of the whole problem of delinquency and crime, and I doubt whether it would be wise, from the point of view of the Home Office, having to consider delinquency and crime from its beginning, if one phase of it was separated from the others.

Mr. Leach

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the increasing excellence of approved schools promotes the desire to get children there, and that the only way they can get there is by some delinquency?

Sir Richard Acland

The right hon. Gentleman said that this body might or might not make reports. Who is to decide whether any particular item of its advice is to be made publicly or privately, the body itself or the Home Secretary?

Mr. Morrison

The Home Secretary must decide that.

Sir R. Acland

Is this to be a secret board, whose advice can be kept private if the Home Secretary does not wish to publish it? Should not its advice be made public to the world?

Mr. Morrison

I hope that my hon. Friend will not work himself up to a state of dramatic excitement. If the Home Secretary appoints a committee, it is for him to decide whether its advice shall be made public or not.

Mr. Burke

Will the school attendance officers or education officers be represented, because their advice would be valuable?

Mr. Morrison

I do not think I should give any undertakings about the representation of particular interests. I will do my best to maintain the balance as well as I can.

Mr. Lindsay

In view of the debatable points which my right hon. Friend has raised between Departments, will it be possible to have a Debate on this question, which has not been discussed at all?

Mr. Morrison

My hon. Friend is very unjust: I did not raise any debatable points. The debatable points were raised by hon. Members. I merely answered as reasonably as I could. To accuse me of arousing controversy is, I think, shocking.